Narrator:
0:03

Welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Brought to you by Reading Horizons. Literacy Talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights, and practical strategies for helping all learners reach reading proficiency. Our hosts are Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and chief academic advisor for Reading Horizons; Donell Pons, a recognized expert and advocate in literacy, dyslexia, and special education; and Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author, and speaker. Now let's talk literacy.

Stacy Hurst:
0:47

Hello, and welcome to Literacy Talks. My name is Stacy Hurst, and I'm joined by Donell Pons and Lindsay Kemeny. And today we get to talk about a research article that was published. We'll call it research article that was published in the Literacy Research Association by them very recently, August 2026, I believe, is the date on it, and it is titled "What's Hot in Literacy at 30, meaning 30 years of this trends, tensions, and trajectories in a changing field. So, before we dive in, I know you have your guy. You guys are going to have some really cool things to say. I want to talk about the context about how this survey is what it is is conducted. So, we are going to note that, by the way, the authors of the article are Stephanie Grote Garcia, Evan Ortlieb, and Jonathan Marine, and they asked 25 literacy leaders to identify which topics are receiving attention and which ones deserve more attention. We had a quick conversation before we started recording. They do list the people that they have included by region. They were intentional about getting representation across the United States, and some of these people you can read down the list and be like,"Oh yeah, I totally know them. And other people not as familiar with yet. So, okay. Before we get to the results, here's a little context about how the survey is conducted. Each year, the researchers purposefully select 25 literacy leaders from different regions and professional roles. They also revisit the topic list, drawing on recommendations from the previous year's panel. So that would lead us to believe there's a new panel every year. In individual structured interviews, participants rate each topic twice: first, whether it is currently hot or not hot, and second, whether it should be, it should or should not be hot. They can explain their ratings, and the researchers aggregate these responses, apply consensus thresholds, and compare the findings with the prior year. So this is best understood as a snapshot of where experts believe the field's attention is going, rather than a direct measure of which practices are most effective, and I think that's an important distinction. No topic in 2026 was rated extremely hot. Four were rated very hot: artificial intelligence and literacy, early literacy, phonics, and phonemic awareness, and science of reading and structured literacy. Meanwhile, writing was rated not hot, even though every panelist agreed that it should be. Cultural and linguistic diversity and literacy for multilingual learners also received unanimous agreement that it should be hot. So today we're going to talk about what those rankings reveal, what they might obscure, and whether the attention economy of literacy is actually serving teachers and students. So, my first question for you guys is: What was your immediate reaction to the list, like what surprised you and what felt extremely or entirely predictable.

Lindsay Kemeny:
4:30

Well, it was predictable in my opinion that the science of reading was hot and phonics and phonemic awareness was hot. It's really surprising me to me that both of those same categories, over half of those interviewed thought they shouldn't be hot. I thought, like, when you're looking at that table, I had a, I kind of did a double take when I was reading that table, and I'm like, wait, what? How could you think phonics should not be hot, and how could. You think the science of reading should not be hot, and what what did they mean by they thought that it shouldn't be hot? That that was really intriguing to me.

Stacy Hurst:
5:07

Yeah, and I think that's an important distinction because remember, they're not saying what is important or what isn't. I think in this case, maybe like phonics and phonemic awareness, the focus should just be on implementing it right now. Right, like we know enough about it. Let's just do it. Maybe I don't know. That's a good question, Lindsay.

Lindsay Kemeny:
5:26

Yeah. Well, I just think nationwide, that is still a critical piece that a lot of us are making shifts. So there's a lot of us that probably listen to this podcast are a little more on the forefront. I feel like of of you know changing ways, but I think if you get out there in a lot of schools, I think there's still a lot of ineffective practices, most likely that are you know, and ineffective programs, phonics programs. So, so to me, I'm like, oh my gosh, that should that should be hot always. But of course, different grade levels, it's not the focus. So maybe that's why they voted that way. But anyway, I just I just thought it was interesting. And same with the science of reading: are they are they voting it shouldn't be hot just because they're sick of it because they don't believe in it because then that would be a bigger problem, right? Because these are most of these are professors of education. I think that that did this poll. So anyway, just I just a lot to think about there.

Stacy Hurst:
6:22

Yeah, they did say the the the committee was from a lot of different roles in education, but they didn't specify what their roles were. I think that's important. And you did say phonemic awareness and phonics. That I can see why that would give you pause. It did me too. But early literacy, they thought, is hot and should be hot, so that could be in as part of that too. Donelle, what about you?

Donell Pons:
6:47

Disappointed about writing, as I always am.

Stacy Hurst:
6:52

Yes, yes. I actually disagree

Lindsay Kemeny:
6:55

with that.

Stacy Hurst:
6:57

That it should that it should be hot.

Lindsay Kemeny:
6:59

No, no, it should be hot. I disagree that it's not hot because, but again, I feel like my spaces that I'm in a lot, like the science of reading space, where

Donell Pons:
7:11

I just feel like a lot of

Lindsay Kemeny:
7:12

us have already have are you know we've got a handle on the reading and a lot more are ready to focus on writing. So in my circles, writing is hot, hot, hot, and I feel like I and I think I said because this that's like as I'm going and traveling and speaking, that's like the number one thing I'm being asked to speak about right now is writing. So that's just an area I disagree because I think it is hot, and of course I agree that it should be hot, but I do think it's hot right now.

Stacy Hurst:
7:42

Yeah, and I mean we should also take this opportunity to point out that Lindsay, your next book is going to be on writing, so you've really been engaged in that. Yeah, I just created a new course that is about written expression, so I agree with you that for me it's really hot, but I think the reason that it they're saying it's not hot is because of what you've been saying. Like I think it's becoming hot, but teachers haven't been able to focus on it for one reason or another.

Donell Pons:
8:15

Another thing I found concerning comprehension. Why isn't it hot? It's the end result of everything they do, right?

Stacy Hurst:
8:25

Yeah, it's it's what's not, and it that it should be hot. So

Donell Pons:
8:32

yeah, it says it should be, but I think it is hot. I do. I think comprehension is hot.

Lindsay Kemeny:
8:38

I don't think it's hot.

Donell Pons:
8:39

I don't teach my kids to treat for nothing.

Lindsay Kemeny:
8:43

Well, yeah, I mean, like we know that's the outcome, but when I'm like, I don't think it's as hot in the community. Like that's not what a lot of people are just talking about and focusing on right now. Maybe

Donell Pons:
8:54

you guys know how I feel about some texts.

Lindsay Kemeny:
8:58

Yeah, they can

Stacy Hurst:
9:01

just to read it, attention is not the same as importance, right? Oh yeah, right, yeah.

Lindsay Kemeny:
9:08

But good for our listeners. When I'm saying I don't think comprehension is hot, it's not because I think I think it should be right, like Donell is saying. But I I'm agreeing that in the field it doesn't seem as hot.

Stacy Hurst:
9:18

And do you know what syntax isn't even on the list, Donell. No, I mean I don't know. That's my point. And you're saying it should be you, you and Julie Van Dyke, and I'm sure many others. And Julie Van Dyke, we hope you're listening. We love you. But yeah, it should be hot. I agree. I agree with that. Also, because it's just an area that teachers don't. I know we're not as trained in as we should be, right? Okay. The authors say that the field showed more continuity than change. Is that stability reassuring, or does it suggest that literacy conversations are stuck? Any thoughts on a great question,

Donell Pons:
10:03

Lindsay? I think you were shedding some light that we think we've come so far

Lindsay Kemeny:
10:09

that there's still a long way to go. Long way to go. Yeah, but I but I think it's showing. Like I'm glad there's continued interest because I I think when it was talking about like like science of reading, early literacy kind of started being hot according to this list in like was it 2018 or maybe it was 2020 and so I think that's good that we're sustaining that so that shows that it hasn't always been on everyone's radar but it it's on there now and I think it's good that we're sustaining that, you know.

Stacy Hurst:
10:42

Yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny:
10:42

continued change. So, yeah.

Stacy Hurst:
10:44

And in the report, it specified terms like the science of reading and structured literacy are still hot. So, what do you think drives a literacy topic to become hot? And here's a list of possible explanations: research, student need, legislation, media coverage, commercial interests, professional organizations, or something else.

Donell Pons:
11:11

Yes, to all of the above.

Lindsay Kemeny:
11:13

That's what I was going to say.

Donell Pons:
11:14

Yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny:
11:16

all of the above.

Donell Pons:
11:17

Yeah.

Stacy Hurst:
11:17

Do you think one has more weight than another, or

Donell Pons:
11:22

I okay. You know I've talked about this before, but I don't think we can say enough about understanding the history of decoding dyslexia as an organization and what that did for dyslexia, and then also science of reading, because it's then how do you teach our students with dyslexia? Well, it was a natural fit, science of reading, so a lot of them had conferences, and so that was legislation that resulted in legislation that resulted in a lot of what is now called our science of reading movement. So I do think those things can be very well. They are they're game changers. They're powerful.

Lindsay Kemeny:
11:55

Well, and I think the parent advocacy really helped to get attention, gain traction. Then we have Emily Hanford, who that's you know reporter who started reporting on this stuff on the

Donell Pons:
12:07

parents, right?

Lindsay Kemeny:
12:08

Yeah, the on the yeah, I think yeah, she started with the parents, right, and it got her attention. Emily Hanford really got it going, and then we had 2020 hit, where then a lot more parents and people were seeing what was happening in the classroom, and I just think all of those things combined really helped start this movement.

Donell Pons:
12:31

Yeah. So all of it.

Stacy Hurst:
12:33

Yeah, and then you have professional organizations like the Reading League, or there are a lot of those too. International Dyslexia Association. Well, the Reading League has been

Lindsay Kemeny:
12:43

doing an amazing job. I feel like just really. I mean, what year were they started? It hasn't been that long, and I just feel like look at everything they've accomplished. They have a chapter in almost every state. They put on this strong conference, ongoing outreach webinars. I just think they're killing it. You know, it's it's it's just a huge help. A wonderful website with tons of resources. It's amazing.

Stacy Hurst:
13:08

True. I think this coming up conference is their 10th conference. I don't know. Yeah. So that founded in 2016.

Lindsay Kemeny:
13:16

Okay. So 10 years. Yeah.

Stacy Hurst:
13:18

Yeah. A lot to have accomplished in 10 years, way to go! Read anybody who's associated with the Reading League. That's all of us and many more, I'm sure. Okay, so let's talk about those four very hot topics. Artificial intelligence was identified as hot by 24 of the 25 panelists. Boy, you want to know who the 25th one was that didn't think it was hot, and as a topic that should be hot, should be hot. What belongs in a serious conversation about AI and literacy beyond efficiency and plagiarism? And I know we've done an entire episode on this, so listen to that episode. Tune

Lindsay Kemeny:
14:03

in. Yeah. So we have a whole episode on this. I don't know if it's going to air before or after this episode. So refer to that one.

Stacy Hurst:
14:16

Okay. At the expense of being repetitive, then we're saying listen to our episode on A, yeah, but we'll

Lindsay Kemeny: just say this:
14:22

it should be hot. I agree; it should be hot. Doesn't mean it should be used all the time, and we have to be careful with how we use it. And we shouldn't jump into just using it in our classrooms, having students use it without, you know, careful analysis and research and guidelines put in place,

Stacy Hurst:
14:44

and explicitly teaching students how to use it. I think that's yes, yes came out of our earlier conversation. Yeah, and before

Lindsay Kemeny:
14:51

just assigning a assignment with AI, like I'm I'm thinking upper grades, obviously here. Like yeah, like you said, Stacy, we've got to explicitly teach them how to use. Tool rather than just have them use it.

Stacy Hurst:
15:04

Yeah, and we said it earlier that attention is not the same as impact, but in this case, I think not attending to something like AI could have a negative impact if we're not careful about it. So that is understandably a very hot topic.

Lindsay Kemeny:
15:20

There's um they they need another question for me because I would vote another category. I would vote I don't want it to be hot because I'm just over it. I'm tired of hearing about it. It's definitely hot. I get that it should be hot. I don't want it to be hot. I just want it to go away.

Stacy Hurst:
15:38

Okay, so we're recommending another category. Do you want it to be hot or not? I appreciate that. Okay, the next top the next topic was early literacy. Like I mentioned before, it remains very hot. Has attention led to a fuller view of early literacy, or has it sometimes narrowed the conversation to a smaller set of skills like phonemic awareness and phonics.

Lindsay Kemeny:
16:04

Well, I'm glad. I feel like just saying early literacy encompasses you know everything. So, Donell, maybe that's where the comprehension part is in. You know, we were saying shoved in

Unknown:
16:16

there.

Lindsay Kemeny:
16:17

Maybe it kind of is hot because it's part of early literacy, Right, so it is,

Stacy Hurst:
16:21

but sometimes there are things like you know where do oral language, knowledge building, children's literature, writing, family engagement-all of those things are important for early literacy. But I don't-I would be curious to know what these participants were thinking of when they said,"Yeah, early literacy is hot.

Lindsay Kemeny:
16:44

Yeah, but definitely we have like a lot of focus. I think on the early literacy, and maybe upper elementary and secondary are getting a little annoyed because of all the all the resources and the you know I feel like a lot of webinars are focused on early literacy. I love that, obviously, as a first grade teacher, but we still need to be sporting the other grades. But it's just so foundational. If we can get reading and writing right in the early grades, we were setting those kids up for a better future. So we want to get it right in the younger grades.

Stacy Hurst:
17:17

I do have to say that did surprise me. The adolescent literacy was not hot. Yeah, I know. I

Lindsay Kemeny:
17:22

disagree with that one too. I disagree with that because, like, you know how

Donell Pons:
17:26

I feel.

Lindsay Kemeny:
17:27

We've had several books come out this year on secondary adolescent literacy. In fact, the Reading League did that whole book study on adolescent literacy. So I feel like, again, but that's again in our community. So I almost think it's different in our science of reading community. What's hot and what's not than this broader look at what's hot, and this is we have to more broad.

Stacy Hurst:
17:53

That's a very good distinction because they did agree that it should be hot. Okay, phonics and phonemic awareness remain very hot. What would it look like to move from debating whether these skills matter to improving the precision and responsiveness of instruction?

Lindsay Kemeny:
18:13

Yeah, that's like where we're getting at the meat of it, and I I like that. I feel like that is where we're moving towards, but you know, again, it's probably not across the board where everyone realizes that. But it's it's just sad to think that we might still need to be saying like, no, phonics is important. You know?

Stacy Hurst:
18:35

Yeah. Well, remember that we did a whole episode on over teaching Of phonics, that accusation,

Lindsay Kemeny:
18:42

yeah.

Stacy Hurst:
18:43

And in that episode, we all agreed that we still need to attend to it. But what is over teaching? How do you describe that, right? And that we could be more efficient with it, which I'd like to see that be a focus as well. How much of the code do we need to teach for whom? Yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny:
19:03

I like that. I like getting you know. I like getting into the nitty gritty of what a good phonics lesson looks like, and let's see how to really refine it. I don't think it's helpful to categorize certain things as certain approaches, and then get in the weeds of is this this approach or is this this approach? Like, let's just focus on good teaching and a phonics lesson, and let's not worry about labeling it. Let's just

Stacy Hurst:
19:25

and I know Donell. I've heard you say this many times too. It's not just a matter of are we teaching it, but how are we connecting it to vocabulary, comprehension, and meaningful reading and writing too. So I think it's an oversimplification to say phonemic awareness and phonics are hot without really defining what we mean by that. I think that yeah, yeah.

Donell Pons:
19:54

What's their value without everything else, right?

Stacy Hurst:
19:57

Yeah, yeah, yep, and the. One piece of the

Lindsay Kemeny:
20:00

puzzle.

Stacy Hurst:
20:01

Yeah, that's true. And if I'm reading this correctly, they oh yeah, that it should not be hot. That's what that's what I was saying before. Like I couldn't

Lindsay Kemeny:
20:12

believe that they voted that, but maybe it's like we're over it. We get it. Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:
20:19

or maybe phonics is

Lindsay Kemeny:
20:20

important. Move on. You know, yeah. Like, okay,

Stacy Hurst:
20:22

there are a lot of programs that teach phonics now. Move on, right? But then we're talking about these more nuanced aspects of it. What role does assessment play in what you teach in those times, and how do we connect it to other aspects of literacy? I think, yeah, I think it still needs to remain hot if we're looking at those things as yeah. So

Lindsay Kemeny:
20:40

it's just I would love to be like, okay, those people because over half of them said it should not be hot. I just want to know why. Because you think we got it, move on, or because you're like phonics is not that important and you have a different view of it. That would worry me. Yeah, but because that was like whole language, right? And even balanced literacy was just very, you know, not about explicit phonics instruction. So yeah,

Stacy Hurst:
21:08

good point. Okay, so the science of reading and structured literacy slipped from extremely hot to very hot. Do you read that as waning interest, reduced novelty, or a shift from advocacy to implementation.

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21:26

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Stacy Hurst:
22:06

Well, nothing was extremely hot, right? So in this one, so that that little slip. I'm hoping that it's a focus on implementation. I'm hoping that

Lindsay Kemeny:
22:17

it's the same person that said AI is not hot. We're going to blame it all. Is that one person we don't even know who it is? This

Stacy Hurst:
22:28

is unlike our legislators, where we demand who to know who what voted for. If they

Lindsay Kemeny:
22:33

had voted for the science of reading, it probably would have been extremely hot. Is

Stacy Hurst:
22:39

that one hold out. Oh my goodness, yeah. Okay, writing was the only topic rated not hot while receiving unanimous agreement that it should be hot. Why do you think writing remains literacy's perennial? Yes, but later priority. Don't know. Oh, not

Donell Pons:
23:00

enough people know how to teach it well. That's what I think. I think a lot of people who teach are still uncomfortable with their own writing. Many of them, and I'm not. I mean, that's not to point you know fingers at anybody, but I think that is a part of it. And it's just like trying to find a really good math teacher that can be challenging. Also, for the same reason. Well, math was never that great for me either. I'm not terribly comfortable. I have one way of I know how to do it because it's such an uncomfortable thing for me. I think writing can be that way. When when in the hands of someone who's very comfortable as a writer, gets the how fundamentally how to write a lesson, watching or participating in a lesson with that kind of a teacher, can be a lot of it fun for students and very engaging. I remember some of my best experiences in a classroom were with teachers that had confidence, a certain confidence level, with their own writing, and those were terrific experiences. And yes, I was one of those students who I really enjoyed writing myself. I took to it, but I'm also thinking about this other students that were in my class. Not all of them did, but even they found something to enjoy with it. And I think that's really telling. Is when you've got a classroom of 25 students, some who are going to love it, some who are just so so on it, and some who've never found great success with it. But they're all engaged. It's not an easy thing to do. That's what we're talking about here. But it can be done. But I think the one thing that was important is because the teacher had a confidence level with it and a comfort level with it, then that it was expressed within the teaching. So I think this is one of those things we don't pay enough attention to. Yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny:
24:34

yeah. Writing is the most cognitively demanding thing we're asking our students to do. It is challenging. You have just the transcription skills. Thinking of how do I spell that word, then how do I form those letters, and can I form them fluently or type them fluently so I can get my ideas on paper? That's just the transcription piece. And lower grade teachers already know that's a huge list. Lift. Then you have the whole composition side of things. So, what message do I want to convey? How am I going to organize that message? What does? How can I put these words together in a sentence that makes sense? Do I have those sentence skills? What words am I going to use? Vocabulary comes into play, and then that we have executive functioning skills. The students have to be able to maintain their attention on the task at hand and take themselves through the writing process, and ignore distractions. Ignore when their hand hurts from writing, or if they're hungry, they've got to sustain their attention. So, and then all of these things interplay with working memory, short term and long term. So then you have a teacher that's got to address all of that and teach all of that. So it's it's the most it's the most challenging thing that our students are doing. It's the most challenging thing for teachers to teach. And most of us have not had a course dedicated to writing instruction at all in our prep programs. And then and then our the programs available to us a lot of times, they just give us prompts. They're like, "Here, now have kids write a story, have them write a fable, and there's, and like, where's the instruction to go with it? So, it is not just a science of reading problem where some people are saying, "Oh, this is so terrible. We're not focused on writing. Writing has been called the neglected R for a long time, so this is nothing new. But it's writing has historically been neglected,

Stacy Hurst:
26:28

which is unfortunate because honestly, if you if you teach reading like a writer, you're going to your instruction is going to be more efficient. Your students are going to be more efficient at learning reading, like I used to. We used to use the phrase"read like a writer and write like a reader, but you can't have either one of those if reading is so lacking, decoding. But I think we've divorced the two, and I think that's part of the problem because they do, they they are two sides of the same coin.

Donell Pons:
27:01

And Stacy, I'd go even further and say we've divorced it from language. And as we've been discussing, language is everything. How many times, Lindsay, to your point, do you give a kid a prompt and there's never been a conversation, no discussion? We've completely divorced it from language,

Stacy Hurst:
27:19

including pragmatics, which is why I college students not capitalizing the pronoun I because they're writing like they text right which is not yeah

Lindsay Kemeny:
27:29

yeah they can't say it they can't write it

Stacy Hurst:
27:31

so yeah yeah

Lindsay Kemeny:
27:33

starts there

Stacy Hurst:
27:35

the other thing I think is a deficit when we're talking about writing is that you can there are it is teacher knowledge, like you said. There are more than one. There's more than one aspect to writing. It starts with letter formation and transcription skills, but it doesn't end there. And we always have to address those. Starts with

Lindsay Kemeny:
27:56

oral language, Stacy. Starts with oral language. Oh yes, I'm sorry. Yes, it

Stacy Hurst:
28:00

does start with oral language. My bad, and to keep that as a consistent throughout the whole across the grade levels, because in my experience, what I have seen, and Lindsay, I'll just use you as an example. You get a first grade teacher who is nailing it with writing instruction. Kids love it; they're doing great with the first grade content, and then they probably don't get really healthy or hearty or adequate writing instruction again till fourth grade. Which in our state they have to pass a five essay test, right? Five paragraph essay test, and then the fourth grade teachers are scrambling to teach them all the things because they haven't. It hasn't been a consistent focus throughout the grade levels, and I'm not blaming teachers. I am pointing fingers at institutions of higher education. Yeah, and then also in within schools too. The administrators may or may not know how to focus on that or provide supports for teachers. So you know, not

Donell Pons:
29:01

to beat this to death, but just one last comment because this was even a topic last night. Interestingly enough, with my son and my daughter-in-law, I'm visiting, and he's finishing up his master's thesis dissertation, and writing came up, obviously discussing writing, and he said that's been one of the biggest challenges for a lot of folks in the cohort is writing, and it was interesting because he said he had a conversation with a student because somebody said to him to the student, "Hey, why don't you talk to my son about writing? He's really good at and very comfortable. And one thing my son said he's come to the conclusion of is he starts that conversation with fellow students by saying, "Hey, look, I'd be happy to help you. Let's do some of it, and we'll discuss and we'll break it down. But he also said, "Don't compare yourself because I've had a lot of practice and experience because I was taught and taught through the years. Writing was really important in our household as well, and oftentimes he had a teacher that backed that up. That was fantastic. But if he didn't, I filled in the gaps. So he was consistently writing." He said,"I've had a lot more experience doing it. You've had just far less experience. Period. So let's just cut you some slack and start the conversation. It's kind of a reset for the student. But I thought, oh, that's really nice that he's figured out a way to to do that for a student to alleviate some of the burden of saying, 'Geez, why why is this so hard for me? So that they can at least have a base to start with, but I thought that was really interesting. I've had a lot of experience. To your point, Stacy, so many gaps along the way was something as you pointed out, Lindsay, from the start is the hardest thing we're going to ask a student to do. Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:
30:33

yeah. Not every student has the benefit of having a mother who writes sentence diagrams on the window. Is that what it was? Yes, yes. I remember that. I remember that. I feel like I feel my children after hearing that. Oh dear! So amazing. I know it's so great, and your that's all your son needs to say when those conversations come up. Okay, listen. You might love holiday decorations on your window, but we had Santa's diagram. Yeah, yeah.

Lindsay Kemeny:
31:10

I know the rest of us. We put a pumpkin up or something, but we don't digress. Oh

Stacy Hurst:
31:18

my goodness, I love it. Okay, well, I would say that for us, that that topic of writing should be hot. We think it should be hot. It is hot, and it's very important. So, yeah, I'm glad that all of the researchers in this particular survey agreed that it should be hot. So, hopefully, something will be done as a result. Okay, the article argues that handwriting, spelling, keyboarding, sentence construction, idea development-all this is related. Genre knowledge and revision are interacting dimensions of writing. So they were saying maybe that that's what they're thinking of. Where has the field created unnecessarily unnecessary either or choices?

Donell Pons:
32:09

Oh, everywhere.

Stacy Hurst:
32:12

Yeah, and you know, I think it might. I mean, I don't want to. I don't want to be a reductionist, but where like we need to honor transcription and composition, but without reducing writing to just those are the two part. Those are the two pieces, right? There's so much more that goes into that. So yeah, I think it has become in the lower grades maybe different from the application. Okay,

Donell Pons:
32:42

so Stacy, I think to sum it up once again, I mean, for if we need an illustration, but the the great he was an educational. I'm not exactly entirely sure what his degree was specifically, but he was Czechoslovakian, wrote the famous book Flow. Name was, and I'm gonna I'm gonna murder it here. So everybody be kind. Mihaya Chechnya. niha. I think that's how he says it. And but I've thought so many times when I read that book a long time ago. But it is in my. It's always in my mind when I think about learning and outcomes. He brought up the point to the point that we've been discussing this whole time. Somebody asked him, "What is one of the most difficult or the most difficult cognitive thing we can ask a person to do, and they thought it was going to be math, this large math equation, something to this effect, didn't miss a beat. He immediately says,"Well, he brought it up this

specifically:
33:37

read a line of poetry, think about what it means, and then write about that thing. But it was writing ultimately in the end to write it. The process. There is nothing more difficult that we ask someone to do. So, is it more than transcription? It is. It's all of the things. So, it's transcription. It's composition. There's the fluency of all of those things. There's mastery of a subject, right? To be able to write about it, we're asking a lot of things.

Stacy Hurst:
34:05

Yeah, and that those things should all be focused on. I think oral language is key here as well. Just in the same way we we talk about comprehension, we don't not address it because this kindergartner cannot read "Gone with the wind, right? Like we still, or the or the read aloud that you're reading in class, we still address it through oral language. I think you're right. And talking about kind of tying into cognitive demands and flow, writing really forces flow if you're into it, the three of us know. I think many people understand that you are in the zone when you're writing. Reading it can happen that way, but it's not as guaranteed. Not as much like

Donell Pons:
34:55

getting into it can be challenging, right? Writer's block, or yeah.

Stacy Hurst:
34:59

So I love that. If you want to cognitively challenge yourself, read a poem and then write about it. Let's yeah, yeah, I like that. Okay, cultural and linguistic diversity and literacy for multilingual learners also received unanimous agreement that it should be hot. Why might that universal agreement about importance still fail to produce sustained attention, or do you think it has?

Lindsay Kemeny:
35:30

Yeah, I think we still need attention there. I agree with that. I don't. I think we could fine tune that a little bit. We talk a lot about literacy, but we can get you know maybe a little more specific, and what is going to best help different groups of students.

Stacy Hurst:
35:48

Yeah, and and to correct, they did say it is hot, and it does deserve sustained attention. I am just in my head thinking, I don't think it's always had sustained attention, though. So, yeah, it should be more sustained. So, to we've brought this up in varying degrees already, but let's put a

fine point on it:
36:11

comprehension, vocabulary fluency, oral language motivation, and adolescent literacy were not among the hottest Topics. What do you? What happens when these are overshadowed by more visible debates? I guess.

Lindsay Kemeny:
36:29

Okay. Name them again. Which ones?

Stacy Hurst:
36:33

Comprehension. And as I am maybe thinking about which one of these areas most urgently needs renewed attention, because I think the argument is we've already focused on these comprehension, vocabulary, fluency, oral language, motivation, and adolescent literacy.

Lindsay Kemeny:
36:53

I mean, they all deserve attention. Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:
36:56

yeah. That would be my. That's our takeaway. Yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny:
37:01

but here,

Stacy Hurst:
37:02

yeah.

Lindsay Kemeny:
37:03

But can you, can you like just? Here's the thing. Think about this one single teacher, and look at all the different things. I mean, I just hope, like, just appreciate. Just take a moment to appreciate all the things the teacher really has to be aware of and knowledgeable in, and this isn't even you know this doesn't even dive into things like student behaviors, mental health, like all these other things the teacher has to be thinking about managing the classroom. You know everything. It just it's when you lay it out like this, it's like gosh, I mean everything is hot. Everything should be hot, but everything can't be hot at the same time. We can only take in and focus on so many things.

Stacy Hurst:
37:48

Yeah, and my role in teacher preparation, I always how much of this do they need to know on day one, and then talking about systems, which I think is actually probably more of a reason for some of these responses than individual teachers. Even is is where does that we don't have a uniform way of saying as a pre-service entity we will teach our teachers this much to this point, and then you take it from there and do these very specific things to help them all gain this information in a way that's not overwhelming, because to your point, Lindsay, that's a lot, and it's a lot for a teacher. It's a lot for the those of us responsible for pre-service teacher knowledge.

Lindsay Kemeny:
38:36

You know, at

Donell Pons:
38:37

the same time, as we're thinking about oh, that's a lot. We're thinking about all of the very challenging things that come up that sometimes make education and teaching very difficult. And even this list-I mean, thinking about having to have a list where you think about well, what's the most important, or what's hot, what's what's not, and how people may or may not feel about a thing. But I think the one through line for me throughout all of this is remembering just how important teaching these foundational skills is to students, and how liberating it is to a student when done well. And so, I think you can focus yourself as much as it feels like you've got all of this bandwidth. You can focus yourself on those really important fundamental skills, so that you can make sure that at least the students leave from having been with you with a better sense of those things. And I'm even thinking of how overwhelming it sometimes felt to me when I had a group of secondary students that varying skill levels. This seems so challenging to me, but the particular topic I was in charge of was writing, and it was how can I help each one of these students wherever they're at now leave a little bit better with that skill? What can I do? It's going to look different for all of them. None of them are going to leave at the same level. That just is not possible. So they're all going to leave looking different, and that was a. Far better goal, far more achievable goal, was for what can I do to help each one of these students leave a little bit better, a little more confident with this skill that as that I'm teaching,

Lindsay Kemeny:
40:12

and and as a teacher, I mean, like we're talking about, it's so overwhelming all these things, and I'm just you know take for yourself one thing at a time, and one thing at a time, you know, and get you're like, okay, I got a handle on this. Now I'm ready to add something else. Okay, got a handle on that. Now I can dive into a little more into this or this, and I kind of have a topic, like I mean, a goal. I kind of have a goal every year that I'm trying to to work towards, but it's not just going to happen all at once, and that's why I love. Like I, I share that in Rack Your Literacy Block. I share this good, better, best. Like, there's okay. This is good. It would be better to if I did this, but I'm just not quite there yet. I'm going to work towards this. Or now I'm better. I'm working towards best. There's always ways to get better, and don't let someone just totally tear you down because you're not an expert at morphology or whatever it is. Do you know what I mean? Because you're you're like we're all at different spots on our journey, and the point is that we're going to keep getting better.

Stacy Hurst:
41:14

Yeah, I like that, and I think an efficient way to do that, even though it may be the hardest, most challenging way, is to switch your mindset from reading to writing because writing will ensure reading, right? Like, and and I'm not saying we're not attending. We're then we're not attending to decoding and all those things. We are, but always make sure that you're you're coupling writing with that on whatever thinking more

Donell Pons:
41:41

holistically, yeah.

Stacy Hurst:
41:42

Even when students can write a sentence, then we're talking at that point in oral language. We're talking a little bit more about parts of a sentence, or you know, just kind of thinking about how those two can be married, reading and writing, along what we've traditionally been, the ways we've traditionally been taught to to teach reading or decoding, and to your point, Donell, the article does close by naming differentiated instruction as a gold standard. Nice, yeah. And you know, on some level, after all, we've been talking about everything a teacher needs to be aware of. Now you need to do it for 30 different students, but I honestly think with my students we start with one student. I teach them the first thing you do with a student is assess, then you set a goal based on that. And I know that that's not always scalable immediately to a whole classroom, but if you're thinking in that mindset, you're going to notice things that will help make that student better because you're going to know what they need. Any thoughts on differentiated instruction as a gold standard? So differentiated

Donell Pons:
42:55

instruction. Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:
42:56

let's do it. If you could change next year's list by elevating one topic, which would you choose and why?

Donell Pons:
43:08

Wouldn't be just one, but I'm gonna. I'm you know me. I'm always after dyslexia and other reading differences. I just that should never not be hot. Along with that, I the The diversity, anything that you should be versed in because it may impact learning. I think those should always be hot. That's always hot. And then, as we've said about things that are reading and comprehension, keeping them coupled, they should all be hot together. None of those should ever be more hot than the other. Anyway, that's where I sit.

Stacy Hurst:
43:39

Yeah, integration, good. And they did say that struggling readers and striving readers should be hot, and that are they are not hot, but they should be, or it is hot and should be hot. Okay, Lindsay, what do you think?

Lindsay Kemeny:
43:53

Yeah, I would say you could probably guess from our conversation. I would say writing. I would like writing up there next time. I and as I said, I think it is hot right now in our community, and but I want it to be hot in the more broad community. Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:
44:10

yeah, and you know, I just realized too that as we're talking about which ones to elevate, I didn't read the whole list of things that they were weighing in on, which maybe I'm looking at it right now, and we've talked about a lot of them. But banned books is on that list. High quality instructional materials. We've talked about motivation a little bit, engagement, interest, attitude, oral language and discourse, parent and family engagement, policy and advocacy, professional learning, RTI. So there's a lot on there. Social emotional learning, social justice, equity, anti racism and literacy. Teacher prep is on there. Yeah. So there is a lot more to this list.

Lindsay Kemeny:
45:03

There's a lot that we can't have everything be hot at the same time. I guess

Stacy Hurst:
45:07

no, that's a good takeaway. That is a good takeaway, and I would I would just echo you, Lindsay. I think is that writing piece in addition, and there I just did it. I separated it because I called it a writing piece, but using writing in conjunction with reading instruction and being cognizant of that, and a lot of times, I don't know if it's just me, but that's writing makes reading exciting. Like even when I'm reading and I notice a really well written sentence, and you just stop and give a moment of awe because it's so good, or when you're writing something and you're like, "Oh, I just I explained that really well, or getting in the flow, which is also important. Okay, let's just end here by rapid fire questions. Try to keep it one to three words. I wasn't so successful last time I had a panel do this. It's just the two of you. Most over-discussed topic in literacy

right now:
46:07

AI. Over AI. Okay, that's very echo chamberish for the three of us. Yes, Donell.

Donell Pons:
46:21

For me, I don't think there is an over-discussed topic in literacy. I think all of it all the time, and keep it coming.

Stacy Hurst:
46:28

Okay, so I guess we can presuppose your answer to

the second question:
46:32

most under-discussed topic, all of them.

Lindsay Kemeny:
46:40

I'll say one that we it wasn't mentioned in here at all was morphology. I think we could syntax. Yeah.

Stacy Hurst:
46:49

Okay, we have an answer, Donell. We have an answer. Most under discussed topics: syntax and morphology. I agree. One literacy conversation that needs more nuance. I'll just lead with I think the phonics and phonemic awareness one needs more nuance. To be honest, yeah,

Donell Pons:
47:06

sure, we're ready for some. Yeah,

Unknown:
47:07

yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny:
47:10

yeah. I'm not. Nothing's jumping out right now that I could say, so I'll just go with that.

Stacy Hurst:
47:15

Okay, that and structured literacy, because I think again we need to focus on integrating all of this, not just separating it. One false choice: the field should retire.

Donell Pons:
47:29

Acting like there's nothing we can do if a student is in fifth grade and reading is still difficult. Acting like that's a mystery. We're done. That's just no mystery. We know what to do, for me.

Stacy Hurst:
47:42

Yeah, and I, you know, I know that the three of us don't think this, but just talked to an educator the other day that dyslexia can be cured. I wish that would go away. Oh, I know one. I

Lindsay Kemeny:
47:56

know one that would go away. Acting like there's one perfect program.

Unknown:
48:02

Oh, right. Or

Lindsay Kemeny:
48:03

or like a perfect way. Like this is the one, and this is better than everything else out there. Even though there's not research

Donell Pons:
48:10

evangelizing programs. Yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny:
48:11

yeah, yeah.

Stacy Hurst:
48:13

Okay, one change you would make tomorrow in classrooms, Lindsay in classrooms, Donell in policy, and I will answer in teacher prep.

Lindsay Kemeny:
48:26

More support for teachers, especially when they they have a lot of when they're managing a lot of behaviors.

Donell Pons:
48:34

More folks with an actual background in what we call the science of reading. If you're tired of hearing the topic, but who have a background demonstrated experience and have shown up in those spaces, having been in those conversations that are actually informing policy.

Stacy Hurst:
48:53

That's brilliant. And in teacher preparation, I actually wish there were more consistency across programs that we had essentially a scope and sequence, and that systems beyond the university will carry it forward, like in in schools and districts and and state offices of education. Okay, today's conversation reminds us again and again that attention is not the same thing as importance, and it is certainly not the same thing as impact. The topics dominating literacy conversations, shaping policy, they shape policy, professional learning, curriculum choices, and classroom time. And that makes it worth asking not only what is hot, but who benefits from that attention, and what may be pushed to the margins? This survey shows that continued attention to early literacy, phonics and phonemic awareness, and the science of reading, alongside the rapid rise of artificial intelligence, is something that we'll probably be having a lot of conversation. About it also kind of gives us a clear warning that writing and literacy for multilingual learners are widely viewed as deserving more attention than they currently receive. So I guess the challenge now is how do we move beyond noticing these things and and making it happen, right? Implementing it. So yeah, we'd love to hear from our listeners too. What do you think is getting too much attention in literacy? What deserves far more? So many things we could talk about beyond this this article. We will include the article in the show notes, and hope you enjoy reading it. And reach out to us if you have any insights, we'd love to hear from you. And thank you for joining us for this episode of Literacy Talks, and we hope you join us for the next one.

Narrator:
50:53

Thanks for joining us today. Literacy Talks comes to you from Reading Horizons, where literacy momentum begins. Visit readinghorizons.com/literacytalks to access episodes and resources to support your journey in the science of reading.