Narrator:
0:03

Welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Brought to you by Reading Horizons. Literacy Talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights, and practical strategies for helping all learners reach reading proficiency. Our hosts are Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and chief academic advisor for Reading Horizons, Donell Pons, a recognized expert and advocate in literacy, dyslexia, and special education, and Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author, and speaker. Now let's talk literacy.

Stacy Hurst:
0:47

Welcome to this episode of Literacy Talks. I'm Stacy Hurst, and I'm joined today with Donell Pons. Lindsay is off today; she is enjoying some family time. And Donell, this is we're recording this in October. It's Dyslexia Awareness Month, and I cannot think of anyone more knowledgeable to talk about dyslexia than you. So I'm glad that you're leading this conversation, and yeah, maybe we should just dive right in. What are we going to talk about today? You

Donell Pons:
1:18

bet. Well, we kind of thought it would be a nice time to do a dyslexia 101, if you will, not just assume that all the things are known, and maybe just have a good conversation to see if there's updates to thinking, maybe clarify a few things. So it just might make a good, fun conversation. And I know we talk about dyslexia all the time. It comes up in one way or another. Clearly, when you're discussing literacy, so it's not like we don't talk about it. But I think there's a lot of confusion still about what dyslexia actually is, and we hear that from time to time from people. So sometimes we hear things like dyslexia is when you read letters backwards. You might hear that from somebody. Oh, it's a visual problem. You need to clarify. Kids with dyslexia just need more practice. Oh, they're really smart. So how could they have dyslexia? Oh, they'll just grow out of it. We hear that one too often. That still comes up today. Yeah, right. Yeah. So

Stacy Hurst:
2:11

today we thought maybe we'd step back a little bit and answer some fairly simple questions. And so first, what do we actually know about dyslexia? So Stacy, when you hear dyslexia 101, what's the first thing you think people need to understand? Well, I think that they, for me in my situation in my teaching placement, I really have to emphasize to my students that dyslexia is a long-term learning difference. That it is not something you can cure or address just quickly and move on. Right? It's something that needs to be attended to throughout a person's lifetime.

Donell Pons:
3:01

Okay. Nice. I like that. That's a nice thing to add. Okay, so let's take a look at the definition of dyslexia. Maybe let's go there because I think partly what you just brought up and some of the other things we talked about are found in that definition. In 220 25, the International Dyslexia Association decided to change the definition, and that was fairly challenging for some folks because we had had the the prior definition for quite a while, and furthermore, the prior definition was being used in a lot of legislative action across the country, and is and is being used. So people were trying to wrap their heads around how this might change things in legislation, perhaps how you talk with teachers. Some of the dyslexia handbooks, which many of them were using the original IDA definition, and so that new definition that we have. Let's make some points about it. Dyslexia primarily involves word reading and/or spelling. That's in the new definition state. It can affect accuracy, fluency, speed, or both. It can range from relatively mild to very significant. It is not a measure of intelligence. It is not a measure of motivation. It is not one identical profile in every person. So I think those were some of the more interesting parts that came out of the new definition. What do you think of that, Stacy? What are you thinking when you hear that?

Stacy Hurst:
4:26

Well, especially the part where it says it can range from you know mild to severe, and I think that's important. That in the new definition, also no two dyslexics will be the same, and I know it doesn't really address this in the definition, but we've seen other research, and I'm thinking specifically about a presentation that Dr. Tim Odegard did. The things that are comorbid with dyslexia too probably play into that, like no. Two dyslexics will have exactly the same profile, especially when you consider those things that are that happen along with dyslexia, oftentimes too. And I do think that the change in the definition is important because we know that knowing what it is, naming it is important. Being able to talk about what it is, not just what it looks like, really makes a difference for those of us who are in education and are tasked with identifying people who might struggle with dyslexia, and then also for people who have dyslexia. And I know Donell, you have a whole, a whole like lifetime of experience with this. How did the people in your family, if you don't mind me asking, how did they respond to the changes in the definition? That because your family has been familiar with the old definition for a long time because it's their lived experience, but what were some of the things that changed enough to make a difference for them?

Donell Pons:
6:07

Yeah, it was interesting because at first it got longer, and so if you have dyslexia, that was daunting, and that's real to talk about the fact that oh, now there's the definition. I wrapped my head around it. It had fairly difficult language to begin with, but now here's a new one, and it's even longer, and there's even more language, and that was a challenge. That was kind of interesting. That was my husband. One of his remarks is,"Oh dear, it's even longer." And so I'm sure that's something many felt. The other thing is that he kind of it became so secondhand to him to be able to quote parts of the first definition that it was difficult to go to the new one to say oh it's that's no no longer the way it stated is that still represented in the new definition and so we had to walk through it several times so it is really interesting you should ask that my my older you know my children who have dyslexia, they are used to things changing, which is interesting because my husband isn't used to that. When you think about it, a lot of things change for these kind of digital native folks. They're used to things evolving, and so I think they were more more amenable to having a definition that's flexible that changes a bit, and realizing that they're adding to it, it isn't really changing. That was the other thing that my kids were talking about. Oh, so we still know the same things. We just are now adding to it, having greater understanding. So that was important because I noticed some people were saying, "Oh, now they've decided it's different." Well, I thought, "No, take a look at it. Isn't that they've decided it's different? So I thought that was interesting. I thought it was really important to mention the social emotional impact of dyslexia that came in the second definition as well in this this revision, and I thought that was important. That's the end. It says there about psychological well being and employment opportunities also may be affected. My husband felt really seen when we read that part. And although identification and targeted instruction are important at any age, language and literacy support before and during the early years of education is particularly effective. He was glad to feel that he was still mentioned there because he got help when he was older, but still acknowledging how important it is to get in early, and it's okay to say both of those things.

Stacy Hurst:
8:26

Yeah, and I mean, when we talk about definitions in general, they are sometimes a little detached. But when we're talking about the definition of dyslexia, it is literally some portion of our population. It's their identity, and so that's the reason I asked that question because I think, like your children were saying, now it adds a little bit more texture to who they are and dimension, right? And also more complete picture. To your point, I love that they mentioned the social emotional impacts, and I think there's probably still, if I can make a prediction, there's going to be a lot more research related to that specific area, probably coming up soon, based on the definition.

Donell Pons:
9:15

Yeah, and you know, Stacy, something important too to mention at the point of this definition conversation is that there's always been a conversation within the the area of dyslexia and folks who have dyslexia of dyslexic strengths, and and people wanting to talk about these these things and they're they're not happy. Some folks are not happy not to see that in the definition, but we don't really have solid research yet? And again, remember the field is evolving, so perhaps that is to come. But as yet, we don't have solid studies that definitely can say definitively that folks who have dyslexia see things differently, maybe have different sorts of skills or abilities. That the other parts of the population don't have, and it's because of the dyslexia. We're not at that point to be able to say that definitively, and like I said, some folks are unhappy not to see that within the definition. But one of my children said something really important a while ago, and he was saying, just because I have dyslexia doesn't mean I have to have a superpower or I have to be super at something. Can't I just be me, and have dyslexia? And I think there is that challenge of finding a balance between folks with dyslexia feeling good about themselves and having good self-esteem, a solid self-esteem. When you have struggled so hard in a school system where you do not receive the right instruction or the right support, there it is very important. Yes, to be aware of supporting a student. That social emotional we just discussed out of the definition, but at the same time, not creating an additional challenge or burden in some respects for someone to carry to say, well, how am I special? How am I unique? I've got to now be unique and have dyslexia. I have to be special and have dyslexia, so you can see how balancing this conversation can be challenging.

Stacy Hurst:
11:06

Yeah, and I can I you know having lived long enough, I can see where that came from, right? Because it was it had a good like good intentions from its start. That I remember first hearing about it when people were drawing attention to very successful people who have dyslexia, and pointing out, "See, this is not something that has to hold you back. Like you can still achieve great things." And I think out

of that conversation came this:
11:35

"Well, there are a lot of really successful people with dyslexia, which is true, but then also that must be that they must have a superpower. There must be something unique about them. So I can see how it evolved into that. But I really appreciate what your son said because these kids have enough pressure on them already, and they're just trying to be what they might call normal, right? They might say that, let alone like extra, and and that could put unwanted pressure on anyone, right? Yeah,

Donell Pons:
12:13

and it also gets us away. Yeah, and Stacy, it gets us away too from that point you made about the definition too. There's no one profile, and so when we start to think of oh if you have dyslexia then you must excel at X Y or Z, that's also developing a profile that then you may miss a student who doesn't fit that right

Stacy Hurst:
12:31

yeah and you know that is when I am thinking about my pre-service teachers and even my experience as a classroom teacher because I taught in first grade, and I've heard teachers say something similar too, and maybe just because they don't know. But how early? Let's talk about early identification. How early is early? What do we need to look for as teachers? And then, and then what? What if we see these characteristics?

Donell Pons:
13:01

Yeah, and so that gets into the what does dyslexia actually look like, and so there are things on the ground that we can discuss that are solid, and one of those would be letter sound knowledge, and so right away when you start introducing letters and sounds, the student who has dyslexia, there will be some challenges there, and again, because it's on a spectrum and and a scale, there may be some students who struggle a little bit with that. It just takes them a lot longer than everybody else, but eventually they get it, and so you keep an eye on those students, right? And you make sure the instruction is appropriate so that they are making progress. But then there are going to be some students who, despite giving what everybody else is getting, which looks like good instruction, they're still really struggling to put those things together, and those students need additional attention. And we need to make sure we're always evaluating and providing the correct instruction to support those students. So that can happen early in classrooms. I mean, my son was in kindergarten when we're noticing right away that he is at the bottom of every instructional cycle when it came to letters and sounds, and then in other things he wasn't right hanging out and talking about science. My son's sitting at the top of the class, but yet the minute we're introducing letters and sounds, so that that also is telling us a lot when you're looking at the whole child, you're looking at the whole learner, and you're saying to yourself, "Wait a minute, what am I seeing here?" You know what? And I think,

Stacy Hurst:
14:28

oh, sorry, let me just put a fine point on that because those other excelling or even being typical in other areas could distract a teacher from really being specific about that letter name and sound. They might think, "Oh, they're fine. Like he does really well in math, and maybe he'll just get it at some point developmentally." You know, I've heard boys take longer than girls to figure this out. So I really appreciate that you specifically called. Attending to how they learn letter names and sounds because we don't want to not address something early when we can when we identify it. So that's a good point. Yeah, and then you were going to talk about phonological awareness too, which doesn't necessarily require print, right? So you could see you could probably witness some of those struggles early on as well. Say more about that.

Donell Pons:
15:28

Yeah, absolutely. Early in the speech, so he he didn't have delayed speech, which some folks do, some do not. Again, let's make sure we're not have one profile right that we're identifying with so hard to say. Oh, look, they didn't have delayed speech. So, nope, that's sometimes, sometimes not. And for my son, no, he was an early speaker, no delayed speech, full sentences, very young. That wouldn't have been the problem. However, if you look back and you think, yeah, but remember how he was saying his words, often dropping the middle of a three-syllable word, not able to get everything correctly, there were signs definitely showing up. Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:
16:07

and that's a good point too. And and I think all of this is within the context of instruction as well. Was it you will remember this better than I will? Was it Hugh Katz that said print is required to be able to tell if somebody's dyslexic, because really the struggle was it him or do you remember this? Like we when instruction instruction is a good a good way for us to attend to this because maybe you'll notice things with phonemic awareness early on, but it wouldn't cause an issue with a student until they encounter print, and then connecting the the print to speech, or was it maybe he said everybody's dyslexic when they're born? Was that? Do you remember what I'm talking about? That's what I remember.

Donell Pons:
16:59

He was saying okay, because

Stacy Hurst:
17:01

we're not wired for print, and we managing that is where oftentimes well these things manifest themselves, right?

Donell Pons:
17:12

And all that to say, Stacy, that we can start to have an idea about things. And had I known what I know now, I would have been emphasizing sounds more to him when he was younger, just in the way we were doing things. I could have been doing more than I was doing because I just didn't realize that I could be doing emphasizing sounds when we said them, even counting and tapping and doing things to make him aware, to bring more awareness to him. Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:
17:41

yeah, and you know, I. What about kids who have a history of ear infections when they're really little? How how can that impact the development?

Donell Pons:
17:52

Yeah, it looks quite different because I had one of those in my household. That was my third child had a series of horrific ear infections, and it manifested very differently because as soon as you would clear up the infection, the difficulties with any speech or sound that you were having cleared up too. So that's the difference: is that when you take care of the underlying challenge or issue, you should see an improvement. Just like for me, when I was young and learning to read, I was not getting it, so to speak, and my mother was called in. Vision. I caught my first pair of glasses when I was in kindergarten, and the minute my mom said they put those on, I started to put it together. So that would be the difference. Is the minute you do get to the root of the problem for that particular student, you should see a difference. Just like when we start to instructionally attend to what the student with dyslexia needs. You'll see a difference. Same thing.

Stacy Hurst:
18:47

Yeah, and that is also I think very important to call out because I have heard oftentimes that people think dyslexia is a visual issue, and it's not visual. It is something that's happening in the brain neurologically. So,

Donell Pons:
19:04

yeah, very different thing. So then we're also talking about manipulating sounds in words, being able to drop a first sound, recall what is left, being able to move sounds around. All of this would be phonemic awareness tasks that you could do. Rapid retrieval and naming, so the ability to rapidly and automatically retrieve the things that you already know, reading accuracy, reading fluency, spelling that's mentioned in the definition as well, processing speed related to ran, working memory, those things that hold language so that we can work with them and work with them long enough that we can retain them and then put them into long-term memory, recall them and use them, and all of that has to be done. Stacy, as we mentioned many, many times, very quickly, and very well.

Stacy Hurst:
19:52

It's fascinating what the brain does in milliseconds to be able to read, and if and I know you've read this, Donell, but. To our listeners, if you haven't read Proust and the Squid by Marianne Wolf, I feel like she describes what happens when our brain is reading better than a lot of people I've heard describe it. But she breaks it down millisecond by millisecond, and it really does have to be to that level of automaticity, and some students with dyslexia they can become very accurate, very very accurate, but their rate still may not catch up with them. Depending, I think, on the student because again, everybody's different. But I know that's one of the ways that it persists. And some of the students I've worked with in the past, or even my college students, they might have the accommodation of extra time. And with extra time, they do great. They can do you know everything is possible for them. But it's just that processing; they just need longer with the print

Donell Pons:
20:59

to be able to do it, so let's talk about what a student might look like if they have dyslexia. So maybe they understand everything when it's discussed orally, but when it comes to writing it down or taking a paper test, boy, it does not look good. And so you're wondering what's what's going on here. They have strong reasoning skills. They may have a very large vocabulary. Yet again, when it comes to paper and reading, it's difficult. They could be successful in a host of other subjects. We talked about how much my son enjoyed other subjects. They can also be very funny, creative, highly verbal, and they work incredibly hard. Many of them are working incredibly hard. So take a look at that effort that's required to do those things when it comes to, as you said, Stacy, paper, and when we're reading, when the letters and the words are introduced.

Stacy Hurst:
21:50

Yeah, I have heard the life stories of people who have had dyslexia, and they may or may not have known it. But even as they go into college, the amount of work that they have to put in to have the a similar outcome as somebody who doesn't have dyslexia is admirable. Also, I do think it may they may more deeply learn it too because they literally just spend more time with it, getting it into their brains, and I I know every dyslexic is different, but I have I can think of two students I've worked with specifically that it felt like with them once they got something in their brain, man, it was in there, there. Retrieval might have been a little slow, but it was locked in, and I can't say that sometimes for typically developing students, I wouldn't say the same level of confidence that that was the case.

Donell Pons:
22:50

Yeah, and so that's the important, Stacy, of looking at behavior too from a student, particularly if maybe you're working with older students, maybe you have fourth, fifth, sixth, and beyond, and you haven't really had much language, you know, instruction yourself as a teacher, and so in your classrooms you haven't really been trained to look to see who has made it into your room without anyone noticing, without folks really noting that that student is having difficulty. So look at the behaviors. My husband just recently gave a little presentation on dyslexia, and he said, "I was the class clown. That was my behavior. That's how I got out of so much because I did not want to be embarrassed. And so I didn't mind being the clown. I didn't mind being called out as the guy who's being ridiculous. I just didn't want to have to read anything." And he said, "So I think I was pretty obvious. Had someone had even a little bit of training, I think I was pretty much standing out. I was calling myself out constantly.

Stacy Hurst:
23:42

I think there's a high correlation, and whether or not a student has dyslexia, behavior is escalated when it is something that's difficult for them to do, one way or the other. And I mean, it could be that out loud kind of behavior, like you were saying, your husband became the class clown. It could also be behavior like daydreaming or just checking out, even if they're sitting quietly in their seat. So, as teachers, that's a lot for us to to attend to. But that would be a really big indicator that somebody is not comfortable with the task at hand.

Narrator:
24:21

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Donell Pons:
25:09

Yeah, and you know, Stacy, just a note right here because I think it's really important. As you know, I work with a lot of adults, and one thing that gets me that I want to make sure is expressed is as we talk about this, it it sounds like it's instructional, informative, but I really want teachers to understand what an impact it has on the person. So that last line out of the new definition that we're reading about the psychological impact of having and your well-being when you have dyslexia, I have a student who put it to me so well. He said, "I would love for someone to take back all the times that I sat in their classroom in third and fourth grade, petrified." And he said,"The word is petrified." I was petrified. I was in third and fourth grade. I was a little boy, and I sat in my chair petrified, waiting for them to get to me to have to read a certain section, and I was I couldn't think of another thing. So he says, "How much time did I lose from actually learning anything because I was just petrified?" And he says, "And nobody nobody takes that away. Nobody takes that back. I carry that, and I still carry that.

Stacy Hurst:
26:24

And you know what? That is just one classroom activity that many of us have probably done without really thinking about the implications of it. But let's just call out today, and probably a lot of our listeners are like, "I'm already not doing that, but that round robin idea that's not good for any student. But the word you used was petrified, and I remember even in second grade, my teacher did that as the whole class. We'd take turns, and I was a good reader. I did not have any anxiety around reading, but I was still counting. Okay, how many lines? I was listening to nothing anyone said. I wasn't getting comprehension or understanding out of that text. I was just solely focused on can I read the sentence I need to read proficiently? That was it. But petrified. That's a strong word. So it's not an it's not an instructional activity or practice activity that's good for anyone, basically. So let's just not do it, and we'll make the world a better place just by that one thing.

Donell Pons:
27:38

And then while we're here too, Stacy, we passed over it quickly, but let's just reemphasize what dyslexia is not. And so, dyslexia is not seeing letters backwards. I still hear this that they see things differently. They don't see things differently. It's what they do with what's in front of them, and dyslexia does not mean a person isn't intelligent. I think we've covered that pretty darn well. Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:
27:58

and you know, I if I could just interject here too because I just had some students in my classroom today talking about this, the idea that people think it's letters or numbers backwards, and I I guess in a way I can see how they would conclude that because if you've ever heard somebody with dyslexia describe what they see on the page, what they're describing sounds visual, but it's actually not. It's neurological. It's the way the brain is processing what they're looking at compared to the sounds. And I can see why people would say, "Oh, the letters are backwards." I've heard dyslexics say the letters move, or I'll look at a word one time and it looks totally different than when I look at it seconds later. Or so, and I can see how you would take away that kind of a visual aspect. But it's really the brain is just scrambling to process and connect the sound to the print. So, yeah, that I think is worth clarifying too.

Donell Pons:
28:57

Yes, absolutely.

Stacy Hurst:
28:58

Yeah,

Donell Pons:
29:00

and dyslexia does not mean someone can't read, because my husband, he's many times you make sure people understand this. No, I was reading. I just was doing it very poorly, making a lot of errors, and reading very slowly, and I wasn't getting a whole lot out of it because of that. So that's another misconception. Well, I've heard him read. I don't think he's dyslexic. Yes, but what does it sound like, and what are they getting out of it, and what is the comprehension when they're done? So that's the point.

Stacy Hurst:
29:31

And then I don't want to say the inverse, but the other side of that coin is writing too. Yes, and I think that that could be laborious for a dyslexic student, but man, have I seen some good writing from people who have dyslexia.

Donell Pons:
29:46

Yeah, the content not

Stacy Hurst:
29:47

impossible. Yes,

Donell Pons:
29:49

can be amazing. Yes, dyslexia does not mean someone can't learn to read too. So let's put that away. Let's put that to bed. Hopefully, everybody here knows that well. You can teach someone to read with dyslexia, absolutely, and in fact, we've benefited greatly from finding out how someone with dyslexia learns to read. The whole community of readers has benefited greatly.

Stacy Hurst:
30:11

Yeah, let's talk about the intervention timeline because a lot of people with dyslexia don't get a formal diagnosis until they're beyond third grade, perhaps, but early intervention research has shown over and over can mitigate a lot of the impact of dyslexia. It doesn't go away. We're remembering that does not go away. But you again, those impacts can be mitigated. But it's kind of tricky because if we don't notice it and intervene, then it still can happen. And I think you have so many people in your family, well, your husband specifically, that is a really good example of that. But it takes longer. It will take longer to intervene. So that's another reason why I think it's so important that we really emphasize early identification and intervention.

Donell Pons:
31:05

Yeah, absolutely. And dyslexia does not necessarily mean someone will always read poorly. As I've said before, I threw loads of intervention, tons of work on his part, and a lot of other people helping him. My son reads so well, and in fact, it's a pleasure to listen to him read. There's a connection to what he's reading that you often don't get with someone who didn't have to work that hard to get there, and he appreciates every word, and you can tell that when he is reading.

Stacy Hurst:
31:38

I love that, and having known you and of your son for over a decade now, that has been a journey that was not easy. I remember when he graduated from high school, and I said congratulations, and the first words out of your mouth were, "That was really hard," because that was a lot of work on your part too, and I think that's another thing to point out in this conversation that's not unimportant is are our systems set up to provide that level of intensity that some of our students with dyslexia need, and unfortunately, I don't think many are in our public schools, especially. So that's where advocacy comes into play, and people who are legislating these things, schools, teachers need more resources for these students because it's not. I've seen many times a student who ends up with a diagnosis of dyslexia, which is another journey. I'm sure you can talk about. Nonetheless, they're struggling with reading, and they're put in a reading group with students who have different needs, different profiles, and nobody in that group is going to be the same. I'm sure, but then they're not getting the instruction they need. They may, on the IEP, be getting the time that is specified, but that really targeted, intensive, consistent instruction is key. And again, and unfortunately, I just don't think that most schools in the country are set up to support students in that way. And I know Donell, that was your experience.

Donell Pons:
33:19

Yeah. So, Stacy, you've moved us right into that next as we continue the conversation. So what do we do about it? You've moved us right into there, and so knowing that a student has dyslexia is important. But ultimately, parents and teachers they want to know what does my student need, and so originally when we talked about those challenges or difficulties, that's what they need help with. So let's go back

over those lists:
33:39

phonology, the sounds, making sure that's a good part of excellent intervention and instruction, and tier one instruction in those early grades, absolutely. Sound symbol associations, good, solid, explicit instruction that's systematic in those sound symbol associations, syllable instruction, again, good, solid, explicit instruction that is systematic, from small to large parts, giving plenty of opportunity for practice. Morphology, which we found can be extremely helpful for students understanding the parts of words, what they do in a word, not just the way you you would go ahead and pronounce a word, but also how you would spell a word, and oftentimes the differences between those two things, and how we arrive at that, and then meaning as well. So there's a lot to these pieces. Syntax, and you've heard me talk about cascade reading for that one. If you haven't checked it out, please do because that's an easy way to engage with syntax, where they drop the text into a cascaded format, and they're indented. The lines are indented based upon the syntax, and oftentimes that's an internal thing. There really is no scope and sequence to syntax. It becomes part of an internal sort of way in which we navigate language, and so it's interesting how we do that and how we tap into it for folks and semantics, which are really important in those parts. And we've emphasized, Stacy, you brought it up several times, making sure that. We have done enough to understand who is struggling and what they need. The assessment piece and making sure we understand that. And so, Stacy, anything you want to add to that explicit, systematic, and what we're teaching conversation?

Stacy Hurst:
35:12

Well, I'd say half the battle is identifying what a student needs, right? And that's where those theoretical models can come into play. the the simple view of reading is a great place to start. Is the student having trouble with print, or is it language comprehension? And that can help narrow down as well. Assessment is key here to really provide that targeted instruction. So I think that is that's one thing. And as you were talking about all the things that we can be really intentional and explicit about, I was thinking that is the structure in structured literacy, right? It's the structure of our language that needs to be explicitly taught.

Donell Pons:
35:54

And Stacy, one of the things we need to remember too is, as you've brought up, the assessment piece so important in understanding what it is we need to teach, understanding those parts of structured literacy, we've talked about them and brought them out, and we've discussed them. And all of this says that the one thing that isn't a good practice is just to continue to have students read. So let's not let's let's get rid of that because I see that oftentimes people saying, "Well, they just need more time, or I'll just put them with a certain kind of book, or are you making sure they're reading at home? Did someone and they have to have the right instruction in order for that time spent reading to be really productive for the student. So that's an important piece to remind folks about too, huh?

Stacy Hurst:
36:40

Yeah, that is really important, and for some reason, that is our default, right? We just want to do more of the thing that they're not doing well, and I'm sure if we look back at my career, I've done that too. But we need to provide instruction to change the outcome because we've heard

it said before:
36:55

practice is permanent. That's a little pithy, but that's a way to say that the way that this is getting literally wired in your brain, the repetition is the way we do that. And if we're doing it incorrectly, then we're going to have things that we need to change in the brain later.

Donell Pons:
37:15

Yeah, absolutely. So, Stacy, with your teachers of you're the teacher of teachers. How much time are you able to devote to talking about dyslexia?

Stacy Hurst:
37:28

So I do. That's a good question. Not enough. I will say that I do weave it throughout everything. When we talk about typically developing reading, how it develops for typical readers, I'm always saying, and you know, this is not going well for a student. It could be this, and this is a deficit that dyslexic students often have when we're talking about phonological processing and orthographic processing. But I do think that my students are aware of it, and they, when we tutor, they may notice characteristics of dyslexia. They know as teachers what to say to a parent when they notice these things. But I still think we know so much about reading because of people who have had struggles, and we're still not at the point of knowing exactly what to do, I, I think I could spend more time talking about that, and teaching my students how to actually apply that knowledge. But we only have a certain number of semesters, and da da da, so it's tricky.

Donell Pons:
38:42

I was going to acknowledge the confines that you have in terms of how much material you have to get through in those teacher prep programs. That's one of the challenges. I like that you said because here's the thing about the when you know more as the instructor, the way you're able to weave that because I think that's highly effective. Be able to weave that through your instruction. Perhaps even more effective than giving a 30-minute or 40-minute on this and having being tested, but rather hearing it constantly as you're having conversations. But that can only happen as you say because you've learned, you've learned, and you're putting your learning into the conversation.

Stacy Hurst:
39:17

Yeah, and I will say it's worth as a professor, it's worth learning about because whenever I do talk about dyslexia, there is not one person that I'm teaching that is not affected by it. They have they have dyslexia. They have a family member who has dyslexia. They have a friend or a roommate, and they they've seen it, so it becomes very personal very quickly, and I think that everybody wants to know what to do and how we can help with this. So it is a it's a powerful learning situation.

Donell Pons:
39:56

Yeah, absolutely. So as we're winding this conversation. We want to make sure that folks have some takeaways, and one of those things, if you're a parent and you're listening and you're thinking, "Hey, you guys have been talking about things that sound a lot like my child," and you may even be a teacher as well, because that happens. You can be a teacher and a parent of someone who has dyslexia, and you didn't know that happens a lot. So you might say to yourself, "Hey, this sounds pretty familiar to me. Talk with the teacher or school. Go to your school to see what resources are available. Ask what the reading data shows. So ask for that reading data and have conversations. And ask what instruction intervention is being provided at your school. So have those conversations. Go back to your school and see what they have available, and see if you can't work a relationship with your school first, because it will be a journey, and it would sure be nice to be doing it together and not alone, wouldn't it?

Stacy Hurst:
40:47

Well, and when you're asking those questions, you're looking for certain words, and the words are explicit, systematic instruction, because they could be getting a lot of extra instruction in methods or with using materials that are not beneficial for the student. I know Orton Gillingham is a kind of a shibboleth, a way that people can know. Okay, they know what they're talking about, right? Like this is the kind of instruction because it is explicit and systematic. There are other approaches that are explicit and systematic and effective, but those are the things that you're looking for as a teacher. Those are the things that you need to be versed in and know how to teach a student using those approaches too.

Donell Pons:
41:29

And I would add, when you have those conversations, look up if you don't have a copy, look up online because they're all available online. Your state's dyslexia handbook, and within those handbooks, and they're very well done. And now that they've all been shared across the country, a lot of the information is similar. But there are chapters in there for parents and things that you can ask at your school, and ways to to negotiate and navigate with the school. Those are very helpful.

Stacy Hurst:
41:57

Yes, and that is actually one thing that I require of my students, they need to read our state's dyslexia handbook, and many, if not all, of these are available online. They're not just physical copies, but then I have them compare other states' handbooks because it's a resource that hopefully in your state is being updated on a regular basis, and that could be the very first place you could go because there will have they will have sorry a lot of resources in there and really good information.

Donell Pons:
42:33

Yeah, absolutely. And then other resources that may or may not be available and active in your state but can be very helpful would be the International Dyslexia Association. There's the National and International, and then there are chapters in different states, and some are very active and provide a great deal of information. And then there are also the Decoding Dyslexia chapters that are across the country, and boy, have they been very helpful in pushing legislation, also providing educational opportunities for teachers and parents, and also providing resources in a lot of communities. So that's another terrific resource. And then in addition, the Reading League is also providing a lot of good information, particularly for teachers. And so if you have teachers that are are saying,"Hey, I'd like to know more," when you bring up the conversation, I know that I don't know enough. These are some of the resources that they can contact as well in their in their local state. And Stacy, any other suggestions that you have that I haven't covered?

Stacy Hurst:
43:31

I think those are fantastic. Sometimes you will find states that have other groups that are not IDA or decoding dyslexia. I know Colorado has Co Kids, so yeah, googling or looking to find those kind of organizations in your area, and maybe you don't have one in your area. That's okay. Tap into the national or the state level one, because there will be a lot of support, a lot of information, a lot of people who have been down the road ahead of you that you can reach out to and help and get some information from help each other.

Donell Pons:
44:05

Yeah, absolutely. And so we hope this little 101 has has been helpful to have this little conversation. Obviously, we'll continue to have them, and the conversations about dyslexia are woven throughout our conversations when we're talking about literacy. It just simply is because it's the number one reason a person will struggle to learn to read, and that's why it's so important to know what we can about it and to help others.

Stacy Hurst:
44:29

Yeah, and as I tell my students, I know the percentage changes from time to time when we're kind of trying to quantify how many people might struggle with something like dyslexia, but I think it's up to as many as 20%. And but I don't want to say that right because it could be you could have a classroom that maybe half of your students struggle with dyslexia or have characteristics that fall into these categories that we're talking about. But I can. Guarantee that you will have students who will need this kind of support and help, and we have. It is not a conversation for 101, but getting that diagnosis of dyslexia is another journey in and of itself. But as a classroom teacher, you don't need to wait. Nobody needs to wait for that diagnosis. We can intervene as soon as we see the issue, right? And it may be that they have dyslexia. It may be that oh, that they just needed extra help or time, and now they're proficient at reading. But those are things to be aware of. And then accommodations and modifications probably not falling into 101 either, but I would say a really good resource for especially especially I would say this for older students who are responsible for complex text, including my own students who want to be teachers. Some of them have the diagnosis of dyslexia. There are a lot of apps and tools. Like I use Speechify. I don't even have dyslexia, and I use Speechify to turn that text into speech too to help them access the content. But we still need to teach them how to decode, right? So those are yeah. Again, 101.

Donell Pons:
46:20

This could be 102, 103, 300. We could keep going.

Stacy Hurst:
46:24

It's true, and if you have not listened to previous episodes, I'm sure you've heard us. We have many on dyslexia. I'm certain of that because my two co-hosts have that very personally close to them in their lives, and so very powerful stuff. Thank you, Donell, for this conversation. I don't think we can talk about it enough, and I think this has been very informative. And if you are somebody who has struggled in these ways, or have a child, or a friend, or a family member, then hopefully this episode has been helpful for you to guide you towards some resources. But we thank you for joining us for literacy talks, and we hope you will join us for future episodes, which may include dyslexia 102, 103, 104. We'll have more than is it Rocky? There are like eight Rockies. I don't even know how many we're at now, but we could have so many sequels to this conversation, so thank you for joining us. Join us for the next episode of Literacy Talks.

Narrator:
47:29

Thanks for joining us today. Literacy Talks comes to you from Reading Horizons, where literacy momentum begins. Visit readinghorizons.com/literacytalks to access episodes and resources to support your journey in the science of reading.