Narrator:
0:03

Welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Brought to you by Reading Horizons. Literacy Talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights, and practical strategies for helping all learners reach reading proficiency. Our hosts are Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and chief academic advisor for Reading Horizons; Donell Pons, a recognized expert and advocate in literacy, dyslexia, and special education; and Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author, and speaker. Now let's talk literacy.

Stacy Hurst:
0:47

Hello, and welcome to this episode of Literacy Talks. I'm Stacy Hurst, and I'm joined by Donell and Lindsay. And today we get to talk about something that is very relevant in the month of October, but should be relevant year round, and that is dyslexia. Donelle is going to lead our conversation today, so we'll just turn the time right over to you, Donell.

Donell Pons:
1:10

Yeah. So you're right. Dyslexia Awareness Month is October, but we should, as you say, be aware of dyslexia all the time. It never sleeps. Doesn't take a holiday, doesn't show up just once a year. Dyslexia is with us all the time and very prevalent in our reading world. Now the challenge is just how many folks are still unaware of dyslexia for one, its prevalence; another, what to do about it, and the fact that we have dyslexia laws in most all states, and we're going to learn a little bit about that today. So we'll be referencing an article that is available for free. People can look at it. You don't need to have a subscription. It's called "The Conversation Is the Website, and this article is actually from February 2026, and it's called"Nearly Every state in the U.S. has dyslexia laws, but our research shows limited change for struggling readers. And this is actually caught my eye, caught my attention a while ago, and I've been kind of thinking about it, mulling it over. But there were some some really big questions that came up for me in it, and one of them was what has actually changed, and you guys have heard me talk about this many times. In fact, we discuss it often. Is what has actually changed since we've had the movement of reading legislation, talking about dyslexia. I've been a member of decoding dyslexia for a long time. My own state chapter became aware when family members were struggling with dyslexia, and I didn't really have anywhere to go and any resources, so let's find out a little bit. And we're gonna first off, we'll start off with what the article looks at to get the title for the article and what it's going to discuss. And so it made this pretty provocative claim that nearly every state has dyslexia legislation, but not much has changed, is what it's going to say, and does that match what we're seeing in our own work? And before we do that, I'll just let the readers know. Here's

what they looked at for that:
3:07

they analyzed fourth grade reading assessments from the National Assessment of Educational Progress, often called the Nation's Report Card, from the years 2003 to 2022. So those are the years they looked at, and they focused on how often students were identified with reading-related learning disabilities and how well those students performed in reading. They compared trends before and after dyslexia laws were enacted across 47 states, so it was pretty comprehensive. And first, more than half of the states with these new laws showed no significant shift in identifying learning disabilities related to reading. That was my first. Some states identified more students, some fewer, but there was no consistent national pattern. Second, reading achievement among students identified with learning disabilities often declined rather than improved after these laws passed in many states, including Alaska, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, Ohio, and West Virginia, only four states-Arizona, Mississippi, Nevada, and Oklahoma-showed significant gains in reading scores on state assessments, with average increases ranging from three points in Oklahoma's case to 10 points in Arizona's example. Many other states experience flat trends or declines over the same period. So that's some of the data that they were looking at. Just some of the information to have. So I'm going to go back to that original thought. What has actually changed? And Lindsay, I'm going to ask you from your perspective in elementary schools: What have you seen as an educator in a classroom? Are you seeing students with students and families at the elementary level getting access to things? Does it look different? Does it feel different?

Lindsay Kemeny:
4:49

Ah, I don't think it feels different to me. And I think it's like, what direction do I go here? I feel like there's a lot of different reasons, but it. It's like it needs to be a whole system, and like it needs to be a whole system, basically. But it's just a screener. Okay, great. Now what do you do? You know. Okay, we identified them, but now what? Where's the plan? What are you supposed to do next? And even then, like as a teacher myself, I've been frustrated because I'm like, huh? I identified one. Here's here's a student. They are really struggling, but I can't get any extra help. They're they're not they don't qualify because you know they had they had too much growth or whatever you know or or oh it's fine and I'm like it's not fine. Do you know how much work has gone into this for them to to do it at this level? And it's just you know the gap is going to get wider if we can't start something right away and we do have you know you know I mean there are other things other than qualifying for an IEP right there's other supports in place but I feel like I feel like I agree with the sentiment of this article I feel like not a lot has changed and it doesn't surprise me that they're not identifying more students, or that you know that they're they're not improving. I guess I guess I'm not surprised because I feel like it's more than just some legislation. There has to be this whole system wrapped around it.

Donell Pons:
6:15

Yeah. Okay. And Stacy, how about you? Have you seen any changes in the way we teach teachers because of legislation does it look different? It

Stacy Hurst:
6:24

does, and I think that may be probably where the biggest change might be reflected. However, we're at the top of the like that's the beginning of things. So I I do explicitly teach my students about it. We teach them what to look for, and then what to do. What you can and can't say to a parent or anyone else about a student who you think has dyslexia. We talk carefully about saying characteristics of dyslexia. So I think there is more awareness. But to Lindsay's point, it's kind of hard because some of the questions my students ask after we we focus on dyslexia is then what do I do? Yeah, and then that's where it gets murky because you should have a MTSS model at your school that could help you address that, but part of the problem is in the diagnosis or lack thereof, and what a classroom teacher does compared to what an interventionist could or should do.

Donell Pons:
7:34

So I think some things are interesting because I'm also going to speak from a person who was in private practice working with students that I have come to me, obviously they're seeking me out, and clearly it's because they haven't been able to get help somewhere else. And I get, I still get just as many. It hasn't changed to me. I still get just as many parents, and they have wide, they have a wide variety of backgrounds coming to me saying, "My kid is now sixth grade. We've been talking about the poor reading since second grade or first grade. I can't get anyone to help me. It's the same conversations; they haven't even changed. And I keep asking,"Do you have data from the school? What did you do about the data? Because then they'll send me the data, and the data is not good. Students in red, and I will say, okay. So your students in red, and they go, yeah. Students been red ever since second grade. Now we're now we're staring at sixth grade. So something isn't working if we're still collecting data, and it's not we're not doing anything with the data. So my thing is we're collecting data that that I can always get data out of parents. They have data. We're just not doing anything with the data.

Stacy Hurst:
8:46

I think I and I am not. I I've shared before. I'm tutoring two students. Both fit into this category, and what you just said, Donell, is exactly the case. One of my students is going into sixth grade this year, and his school record looks just like that. When I do ask, I have attended their their IEPs. I you know the parents are great at sharing the information and talking about the students' goals, and I think I do think the school's doing all they know to do, but I think I have the fundamental question, and it's not like it's not targeted at the school they go to. It's just generally, do our public schools or even private schools have the resources to provide the intervention that students who have dyslexia or even characteristics of dyslexia do they have the resources to provide those interventions?

Donell Pons:
9:52

Yeah, and the article, Stacy. That's one of the next points. Is so, what does a dyslexia law actually? Change for teachers, and here's a quote from the article: Even with enough teachers to screen for dyslexia, screening alone does not help students unless it is followed by high-quality instruction and sustained support. So, boy, is that a statement of the year?

Lindsay Kemeny:
10:15

It's like weighing the pig doesn't make it fatter, right? It's like it's just like that, and it is. There's always focus on the screening, but not as much on okay. Now, what do you do with the data? And there's pockets of bright spots of, but it's usually these teachers who are super passionate, you know, who go out of their way to learn, you know, go the extra mile to learn all this information that you know we're often talking about on This podcast, so yeah. What about everyone else? And and we need and then besides just the knowledge, you need the tools and you need the programs that are aligned with research because sometimes you doing all you can or you take wonderful letters training and you learn all this, but you go back and your program doesn't include any of these things, and you, as a teacher, don't have time to piece together and and create this whole program curriculum. You know,

Stacy Hurst:
11:11

and I would say that there is just I there. I think that we really need to absorb the understanding that this kind of an intervention takes time, and if a student does have dyslexia, and I'm sure we'll talk about the murkiness of getting a diagnosis at some point in this conversation, but even if they do have dyslexia? It's persistent, so we're not talking about just early intervention and then they'll be good to go, right? This is like a supports for pre K through you know grade 12 and beyond for students. Some students with dyslexia. I've also noticed like that maybe that a mis I don't know misunderstanding or just lack of knowledge that this takes time. It takes time, and I can tell you the the student I work with, we worked the especially the first summer we worked together, he made great gains, and we were meeting an hour four times a week. So many that he did move the dial on his fall academies testing. But I almost feel like when school starts, or in this case, I had a one of my students went to summer school this year, and I didn't tutor him during summer school. It then I think that's when they digress. But and I'm again I'm not blaming like the school. I want that to be clear. I just think there's just a general lack of understanding of the kind of resources that go into that. We've heard people say at the state level the diagnosis almost won't matter. They'll get the same intervention as anybody, but I think, and Donell, and especially Donell, but Lindsay, you have a son with dyslexia too. There is a difference between students who are just, you know, struggling with reading. I don't want to say just, you know, want to minimize it, but who don't have dyslexia, and students who do there, I there is a difference. But the way that we are designed to address them is no different in the in the school systems. Am I right, or am I missing something?

Donell Pons:
13:37

So your your point, last point, Stacy, to understand clearly, was saying that even though there is a difference between the type of help and support, and even the length for students who may have dyslexia, students who may have another reason why reading has is challenging, we're only trained to do one thing. Is that what you're saying?

Stacy Hurst:
13:56

I feel like that. Yes, like we're approaching students who have dyslexia. Part of the issue is we don't know. We don't know who has dyslexia and who doesn't, because they all, most of them, get lumped under the same category unless parents have gone out of their way to get testing done. We don't usually have a an official diagnosis. I'd say that's the case for most of the students in in a school, and when we do see that students just need you know more intensive instruction, and it's not dyslexia, they can actually in that MTSS model supports that well. We can close the gap for those students, and I'm not saying we can't close the gap for students with dyslexia that it's not possible. It is possible, but again, the difference is those struggles are persistent, as opposed to the ones who just need you know a little more instruction or more practice and application. I don't want to oversimplify, but that seems to be the nuance. Might be the reason we're not seeing some progress.

Donell Pons:
15:04

So I'm going to push on something uncomfortable here. I'm just going to do it because I think we need to do it, and let's be uncomfortable for a minute to get to the truth of something that we're all dancing around, but we seem afraid or cautious to actually state, and that is this thing that we keep tiptoeing about, and that is diagnosis, no diagnosis, things we can say, things we can't say. And Stacy, you even classic, and it was great. I love that you said it. We spend time teaching our teachers about what they can and can't say. We're still so concerned about the fact that somebody may say the word dyslexia, that I think that is still a problem. It's still a huge problem within schools, and so we're so busy. Oh, I don't know if I should say that or if we can say that. I even live in a state where a lot of the conversations with the with our state office are around this

very same thing:
15:58

what you can say, what you can't say. Doesn't matter if the kid even knows they have dyslexia? Why don't we just treat everybody? We know what to do. We'll do some intensive, but it does matter. And I think we're not over it yet. So I think this legislation has led to yes, legislation across the country and in different states, but it hasn't led to clarity and it hasn't led to comfort talking about something where we need clarity and we need comfort, we need both of those things. You need to be having honest, comfortable conversations with folks, and we need to get to the heart of the matter. It matters deeply to the person who has dyslexia to know whether or not they have dyslexia. Now, if we're having a conversation, Hugh Katz is brought into the conversation. Hugh Katz is going to say,"Well, there's a cutoff point at some point, and the kid just over the cutoff point could be very uncomfortable that they don't have dyslexia. They're not going to get a diagnosis of dyslexia. He's got a point, but there's a reason why they're over the cutoff point. And so, if I'm doing what I should be doing and can do, then I should be able to help that student too. So we we muddy these conversations. We have all of these opinions coming into these conversations. Is it helping us get there is it helping us get to the point where we're we're screening, we're pulling those kids, and we're doing the right thing by providing the correct intervention? No, it hasn't so far. That's what I'm saying. And so I think the clarity and comfort around having conversations about yes, it matters if it's dyslexia, so we do need to have tests, and if it's the Todd, where bless her heart, Nancy Mather actually had to name it Tess of Dyslexia because folks were ignoring the fact that it's dyslexia. I mean, bless her heart, I love Dr. Nancy Mather. She stays engaged and humorous. I don't know how she does it because I would be so annoyed, I'd be banging my head against the wall. But that she literally had to name it test of dyslexia because we just didn't want to say it. And you cannot tackle a problem and take care of it if you can't even have the comfort to talk about it. You've got to talk around it and dance around. I don't know. You guys tell me. Am I just causing more trouble here by pointing this out,

Lindsay Kemeny:
18:03

I think the problem. No, I don't think you're causing more trouble. But I, I, what I have run into is I feel like it's almost opening up a can of worms when I use the word dyslexia, right? Because the myths around it are so prevalent. Yeah. So you say dyslexia, and then all of a sudden, you know, the person's like, "Oh, we better get some cover overlays. And oh my gosh, I got to change the font. And I knew they saw backwards. I knew it. You know, it's like online activities what dyslexia is, and it it's kind of a pet peeve of mine that you know we never have PD centered around dyslexia, and every like even just thinking of back to school, you know, every year we or it's like every other year we're going to talk about you know we'll have PD around students with autism, we'll have you know bloodborn pathogens or whatever. We have all these different. Oh, here's how you use an EpiPen. All these different ones, never something on dyslexia, and I wish that would change. And I love when I go speak in Texas because not that everything is perfect there, and I've kind of you know they've people have let me know. No, it's not all like great, but I'm like okay, but you're ahead of the game because you all use the word dyslexia. You have dyslexia interventionists at every single school. They have dyslexia interventionists, and they're called that. And I wish it could be like that everywhere.

Donell Pons:
19:35

Yep. Stacy, what about you?

Stacy Hurst:
19:38

Well, I can just tell you this is really relevant because it is back to school time as we're recording this, and the parents of both of the students I tutor have said they have chosen not to get a medical diagnosis because it costs too much. It's cost prohibitive, and the question is, what good is it going to do if he has a diagnosis of dyslexia? Yeah, of dyslexia. How is that going to help in the school system?

Donell Pons:
20:05

Oh, it will help. Here's the thing: you you don't engage with one school system. If you're a human, you're going to engage with an elementary or secondary education, and then you're going to engage with a college education. Those are two different systems, and one of those systems, trust me, insists upon a diagnosis to get anywhere, and you might be eligible for help with college tuition and all kinds of things if you have a diagnosis. So the diagnosis, depending for a lot of students, can be a gateway to services, and I think that's a lot of folks who work in this field talk about our gateway to services, and you ought to have frank conversations with people so they understand what's available. Again, here's the sticky widget of the diagnosis because that becomes the person who has, right, the upward mobility to be able to access a diagnosis, and so it becomes a case of haves and have not. Again, of folks who have access to even talking about getting a diagnosis are going to be folks who can interact with that system because you're typically paying out of pocket, and this is something I've argued about for so long that at least insurance. And then again, now it's the insured versus the uninsured. I mean, it's a host of ways in which it becomes unfair, inequitable for folks to receive Appropriate services, so schools, it would be ideal, and this thing called the tests of dyslexia, the dog. I mean, it's very affordable. I, I don't know. I just it it infuriates me because I think we also complicate it to a point that it then does it does it becomes an injustice. Yeah, and then I

Lindsay Kemeny:
21:40

pushed back on that a little bit because I feel like it's not necessarily a gateway once you get a diagnosis because of these myths. So, and we know it's not a guarantee that you're going to get these things. And so, my thing is like I need more people to understand it. And sometimes there's a mindset. So I feel like sometimes with those who don't understand dyslexia think, "Oh, no wonder they're having a hard time. They have dyslexia. They're not going to be able to learn to read. Do you know what I mean? Like, oh, okay, now it makes sense. Taking the burden off myself. Yeah. So that's that's my worry. That's just why I really want more, you know, more information about dyslexia, more accurate information out there.

Stacy Hurst:
22:23

Yeah, and even the resources that we're talking about, like having that kind of let's call it PD, Lindsay. Like you, you said, like every year or whatever. Like parents don't know what resources are out there. There might be more if we had more conversations. I am telling you, in my area, there are none. There are no resources. Like, and for college students, they they're no different than any other student needing accommodations. We don't have access. There's no nothing unique. So I, and from a school's perspective. So, if they use the tests of dyslexia, then I think it can really help guide their instruction if they have the resources to do that. But that's not a diagnosis, right? Which again, you

Donell Pons:
23:15

don't. It has levels, so I wouldn't don't say okay. Yeah, I don't

Stacy Hurst:
23:18

know that. I don't know. I'm not as familiar with that, but that's my point. Is like, and we're still they're still classified under SLD, right? Which is kind of an umbrella term. So how do you distinguish what part of their struggles are dyslexia, and then all the comorbid things that go with them? Like I,

Donell Pons:
23:41

yeah,

Stacy Hurst:
23:41

I don't know. I've been I've been asking these questions for years, and I still don't have any clarity either.

Donell Pons:
23:49

Yeah.

Narrator:
23:50

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Donell Pons:
24:30

Lindsay, I was going to say to your point about, and I work in a lot of college level, and so at the college level, that diagnosis is the answer to a lot of things. In fact, I just had a Zoom conversation with a young man who's just graduating and entering into a graduate program at the same university. And boy, is he articulate! I just thought, boy, I would love to record this conversation and play it for a lot of other college students to hear because he's had to learn so much just to navigate a system. But he was the one who was saying, you know. But is there any way that you could help me figure out how we can get the diagnosis thing to be a lot easier? Because he said I have to jump that hoop every three years in college. Every three years, I've got to prove again. And boy, it would really be nice if I could just expedite that system because I've been through this so many times. I could give that test now myself. You say I could probably give it to myself. And so many times he's been subjected to this test, and that's ridiculous, but here's

the thing:
25:22

these are these systems. So I think a lot of this conversation we're talking about systems that people get into and encounter to try to get from one place to another, and the systems don't work together. They may have different things they're doing. I mean, Lindsay, you've talked about some really really pertinent significant things that occur in an elementary setting, and then Stacy, you've talked about different ways in which it looks different as you're teaching teachers before they hit schools, and you're teaching them these things, but you have no idea where they're going and what they're going to see. And then I'm talking about students that I get from a whole host of backgrounds that are coming, saying, "I didn't get any help. How can you help me? So these systems that people have to encounter, and we don't have a logical way to work your way through it that makes any sense, and it's falling on individuals with dyslexia and those who care about them to have to try to navigate this, and it's staying that way despite legislation, which is really interesting.

Stacy Hurst:
26:22

When we talk about the science of literacy lately, the science of learning and the science of implementation come up a lot. I don't often hear that when we're talking about dyslexia. How do you implement those things that you're talking about, Donell, in a system in a way that makes them effective? Yeah, we're not having that conversation. I don't think.

Donell Pons:
26:45

Yeah, Lindsay,

Lindsay Kemeny:
26:47

I don't know if legislation is the answer either, because what happens and what we've seen this over and over with different programs, where you hear these stories where they, oh, just change this wording here, just change that, like when they're just even describing the product, not necessarily the product themselves, and so like like we were saying, it's a whole system. It's not just here's this screener check, but what? Well, first of all, what is the screener we're using? Because there's some ineffective ones that aren't valid or reliable, and then what are we doing after that? And then what programs have we adopted, and have they been tested, or at least aligned to the research as much as possible, and not just changed a little bit of wording because of

Stacy Hurst:
27:29

the

Lindsay Kemeny:
27:30

legislation? Yeah. Yeah. So that now looks like they align, but when you actually use the program, you're like, no, this is MSV right here, or whatever it is. Oh,

Stacy Hurst:
27:41

yeah. Sorry, I. I just that hit a nerve because in our state legislation, we just revised a literacy law, and there is a loophole that teachers can literally use three cueing if nothing else works. And I don't know why there hasn't been more of an uproar about that, maybe because social media or something. I don't know, but

Donell Pons:
28:04

there hasn't been, and that says a lot.

Stacy Hurst:
28:07

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I I agree. The other thing is, Lindsay, Lindsay, I keep saying that because I am envisioning ever since you said it a yearly reminder, a yearly training. We have to go through it for FERPA and all kinds of things, maybe something specific to students with dyslexia. Because I am thinking about I have college students who are going to be teachers who have dyslexia, and one of my students got tested on my campus because she could not afford the other testing. So to get accommodations, she had to have some proof, some evidence, and so she got tested on our campus by a psychologist who ended up saying to her, "Oh yeah, after all this, you don't have dyslexia. You have a phonological processing issue and some trouble reading. Like he doesn't know that is dyslexia. That is what you described is dyslexia. That's the definition. So there's a lack of awareness on many different levels. I think

Donell Pons:
29:12

systems. Yeah, systems again. Lindsay, I wanted to say I I think I'm I probably should get an award for being the most popular one-time speaker at just about every school around my regional area, because I'll get told they'll bring me in for that one presentation on dyslexia. I'll get told our teachers, hands down, said it was the most informative. They loved hearing, and I'm never invited back. It's infuriating, and I know those teachers are genuine, and I know that that them telling me that because I'm telling them things they've been dying for someone to explain, and there are tons of really good questions from those teachers. They're really engaged. They're into it. They're asking questions because this is what they're experiencing, and they haven't been getting answers. They're desperate to get that help, and so I know that that's true. But then you're not invited back.

Stacy Hurst:
30:00

Right,

Donell Pons:
30:01

it's not a priority.

Lindsay Kemeny:
30:03

Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:
30:03

yeah.

Lindsay Kemeny:
30:04

I mean, I just feel like I would know absolutely nothing about dyslexia if it wasn't for my own son being diagnosed. Right, and I've been in school system for how long? You know, it's just come on.

Stacy Hurst:
30:15

You know, I picture too like students who get diagnosed with dyslexia. Let's say they do. Let's say we have that figured out. Then I think the wording would be: you have dyslexia, and mom or dad, or grandparents, whatever caregiver. And congratulations, you now have. You are an advocate. You have to be an advocate. If systems were working, we wouldn't need so much of that, but my the parents of the kids I tutor again this time of year it has always comes up. How do we get his needs met? How do we do this? How does he communicate with the teacher, especially without a diagnosis? It's kind of hard to say I have dyslexia when there's no proof of

Donell Pons:
31:02

it. Yeah, can you explain? yourself. Yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny:
31:05

then there's so much misinformation out there. So then once you go and look, then it's like, oh, okay, this company is like colored overlays. We've got to do that. Or even just last week in a social media group, a parent was like, oh, we find out found out my son has dyslexia. I don't remember if it was the school or who told her that that she should put everything in dyslexia font. Is it dyslexia? What's

Stacy Hurst:
31:28

called dyslexia

Lindsay Kemeny:
31:30

font? And she's like, "But my son says that's harder for him to read

Unknown:
31:33

when it's in

Lindsay Kemeny:
31:34

there. And but she was coming to like, "Is that right? What's going on? Is something weird? You know? And so it's just there's so much misinformation.

Stacy Hurst:
31:43

I heard a high school, well, junior high teacher the other day. She teaches English, and she was talking about a student who can't read in her that she had last year, and then she said,"And can you believe that his mom wanted one of his accommodations to be that he could listen to text, I'm like, yeah,

Donell Pons:
32:05

yeah,

Stacy Hurst:
32:06

I can keep that. Like, but again, misinformation, right? In her mind, that's cheating. That's like not addressing the issue. That's

Donell Pons:
32:13

wow,

Stacy Hurst:
32:15

yeah. Well, it's accommodation

Lindsay Kemeny:
32:17

plus the intervention, right? I feel like constantly trying to. Yeah, yeah,

Donell Pons:
32:23

it's endless. So I think we answered our own

question to:
32:25

Are our laws actually giving teachers the knowledge, tools, and support they need, or are we simply creating expectations without building the capacity to meet them? We've answered that. We've more than answered that. The answer is yeah, no. The laws are not actually doing that for us. So here's another question for you: Have we been focusing too much on identification? This it might seem like that's an obvious question, but think about it because think about what Stacy was saying with about the diagnosis and things. Are we focusing too much attention on on identification? Here's what

the article says:
32:55

A lot of dyslexia legislation focuses on screening, identification, and awareness, but once we identify a student as being at risk for dyslexia or struggling to read, what happens next? Are we putting enough attention on what schools actually do with that information? What do you think?

Stacy Hurst:
33:12

That's where I go back to. Like we've talked about this so many times, and I think dyslexia had the advantage of decoding dyslexia, and parents who could advocate, but we have a tier one issue, like we all do, and I think it goes back meaning we need to attend to that, make sure that is the most solid first instruction any student gets, but if we don't have that in place, then the nuance questions that I'm asking of how do we address students who how do we instruct students who have dyslexia or who don't, I think that would be more answered, more resources we freed up to do that. Like, I, yeah, I think we need to address tier one. But the focus has been on dyslexia, which it should. Awareness is great, but that system you're talking about includes tier one instruction.

Donell Pons:
34:19

What do you think, Lindsay?

Lindsay Kemeny:
34:21

Yeah, I don't like. That's what I was saying at the beginning. Like, yeah, we do. Oh, here, let's screen. We found someone, but now what do we do? And yeah, I definitely don't think there's enough information there. And even like in Utah, we don't diagnose. So I guess you can identify. But is the word dyslexia even in our legislation, Donell? Because

Donell Pons:
34:42

in our legislation, yes, the word dyslexia is, and they tweaked the definition of dyslexia just a tiny bit because they didn't want it going up against our wording in special education too. So they tweaked it just a tiny bit from the International Dyslexia Association definition, and that's the old one, not the new one. So that new definition. Is problematic for a lot of folks.

Lindsay Kemeny:
35:03

Yeah, because I don't feel like that filters down at all. I never hear the word dyslexia at all in our school districts. Yeah,

Donell Pons:
35:08

we're still very afraid of

Unknown:
35:10

it. And

Donell Pons:
35:10

so here's what I would say: I agree with with everyone here. I think we've all said the same thing, and I I think we're all on board. I hate giving up identification because we still is still we have to identify, but we just have never done anything. All the thing we've done is said identify, but we haven't done anything with it or about it. So we've got the word, but we haven't really put any teeth into any part of it. So I would argue, yeah, we've it's been about identification. We haven't really even done anything with identification. Never mind everything else, which would be actually teaching students, finding out how to help them. So, what would meaningful change look like? This is the part, guys, where we get to dream a little dream. We get to talk about what would real good, meaningful change look like. And Lindsay, I'll let you go first. What do you think?

Lindsay Kemeny:
35:58

It's the final package. No, we need we need the good the good PD initial you know initially but then we also need the ongoing the ongoing and the coaching. So if we could have good highly trained coaches who are knowledgeable about the science of reading, the science of teaching, science of learning. I mean, to me, science of reading includes all of that when I use that term.

Stacy Hurst:
36:25

Right.

Lindsay Kemeny:
36:26

So you know that so that we're constantly going in. Okay. So that's the whole teacher knowledge part. But then you need the good programs, high quality ELA programs, and I think that's the harder part, and then knowing how to implement those. A lot of times, those programs are so stuffed with stuff you can't fit everything in. So it's just that, yeah, that ongoing. We need the tools and we need the knowledge,

Donell Pons:
36:56

and ongoing is important. Okay, Stacy,

Stacy Hurst:
37:00

I would say let's look at the data we already have, and there's a lot of data, a lot of research that I've heard of and I'm hearing more of about teacher knowledge, and think about the individuals at a school who are tasked with helping these students, and they are special educators, and what are we doing to prepare them? What are we doing to certify them to help students specifically with dyslexia and the persistent nature of some of those characteristics? I think that would be a good place to start. But all of these answers are systemic, right? If we're if we're looking at this through a tier a three tier model perspective, then it really is providing the best knowledge and instruction on every level, and we cannot overlook assessment because we might have a screener that is really good at identifying, but then how are we accurately measuring the progress that students are making as they receive intervention specific to dyslexia? And I'm not saying like it's all totally random, like drastically different, but I think the nuances are important, and I'm certainly no expert in this area. But the more that I work with the students that I do, the more I see this. Like the more I see that those nuances will matter.

Lindsay Kemeny:
38:35

And I think there are definite bright spots, and even you know we've been kind of I guess focusing on the weaknesses and what we wish, what else was? But there's a lot of good things happening out there, and in my school district, there's so many things I'm so proud of my school district for. I mean, we jumped on; they had all teachers trained in letters before it was mandated. You know, there's all these changes that I'm like, yes. And then when I go out and speak, there are so many schools and districts that I'm like, wow! I'm so impressed with what they're doing. Or you know, I'm there and we do like a two day workshop, and they're paying their teachers to be there. Plus, they're giving them all these materials, and and there's plenty of conferences where we just want them to really feel special, and so we're gonna you know do all this, and then they go back to their schools, and then they have coaches at their schools, and they're going to keep that ongoing. Donell, ongoing things throughout the year. It might be a book study, and then you know, trying things in their classrooms, coming back to talk about it, having a coach come and watch, give them feedback, try it again, come back and share what they learn. And I just I think, and then and then they're making changes, and they're what do you need in your classrooms? What what can we do to help you be successful? We're gonna put our money there. We're gonna get a high quality program, and the teachers really feel supported. So I mean, and you can see we saw you know those statistics you're telling us, Donell. I mean, we've talked about Mississippi here before, but also Arizona. You said had you know was really making strides with the. They're struggling readers, and awesome. Like there's people doing it. We just need we just need more. And I feel like the majority are maybe just getting their toes wet with all of this change. So it's like we said, it's going to take time. It's going to take some time.

Donell Pons:
40:16

Yeah, and I also think we've I think we've hit on a lot of things. Like you said, there's there's room for celebration, and there are places and highlights, and we should always be highlighting those things, and just even the quality of conferences that teachers can attend. I'm impressed, right? I mean, back in the day, you didn't have near I didn't think this quality, where you really go and you're getting very good intensive instruction in things. I think that's fantastic. So there are many things to celebrate, and I think it's it's it's not, and and we have to also hats off to decoding dyslexia and other groups that have done so much work on legislation because I do think it's going to take all of it, but I think we're at a point now where we need to be really examining how those systems interact, and and now let's let's get together. I would like to see more collective problem solving, and I'd like to see us breaking down barriers between a lot of the organizations that need to actually get together in order to facilitate the lifespan of someone who may have a reading difficulty and them getting through the education system. So that's going to talk legislators meeting with teachers, meeting with district heads, meeting with state heads, and I'd like to see all of those folks at the table meeting with folks who are teaching teachers. I'd like to see all of those folks meeting more often. I'd like to see committees. I'd like to see groups getting together to talk about how we can facilitate the experience of the student and family through that whole continuum, because then I think we're really then I think that's where we take all these bright lights and we really make it work for the person that it's supposed to work for. This isn't supposed to be someone's highlight of their job or something they tack onto their resume. It's really about the lifespan of that learner and have you made life doable for the individual with dyslexia, and I think that's what we're after. And just to remark, Lindsay, on those bright spots, I'm thinking of that the family that we're going to be looking at in Montana, where they didn't realize one of the young students has dyslexia, and then mom goes over to the school. And I loved the reaction that mother gets from the school, and that is, we've missed him. Let's get let's get on it and let's do it. And that you can't ask more than that from a school, right? You can't ask more than that from educators who say, "Look, we missed it, but we're on it. Let's do

Stacy Hurst:
42:30

it. And those systemic supports will help teachers who find themselves being frustrated as well, right? And Lindsay, I do think the more that we learn about the science of learning and reading and implementation and all that stuff, these things are going to become more clear, and the need for what you're describing, Donell, will become more clear and hopefully more actionable. We do have organizations like the International Dyslexia Association, which would be a great resource, and probably have a lot of great things in the works. Their conference is one that's that you were talking about is really good. So, yeah, there there is hope. We might be in the messy middle,

Donell Pons:
43:20

and it's always good to talk, right? We need to have open, frank conversations. We still recognize all of the good things, right? And and advances. We can celebrate all the good things, but we never rest on our laurels, do we? We never do that here.

Stacy Hurst:
43:35

No, we don't. But yeah, thanks for this conversation. It is always emotionally charged. I feel like this topic is like with everybody, but with the three of us as well. And it just seems like in a system, I feel like with this particular topic, it's really important to discuss because there are on every level, there's frustration, right? So let's work to ameliorate that and do what's best for our students who have learning differences like dyslexia. So thank you, thanks for the topic, and thanks to our listeners for joining us for this episode of Literacy Talks. We hope you'll join us for the next episode.

Narrator:
44:24

Thanks for joining us today. Literacy Talks comes to you from Reading Horizons, where literacy momentum begins. Visit readinghorizons.com/literacytalks to access episodes and resources to support your journey in the science of reading.