As we wrap up Season 7 of Literacy Talks, we reflect on a powerful journey through the lens of the 75th Anniversary Issue of the International Dyslexia Association. In this special finale, hosts Stacy Hurst, Donell Pons, and Lindsay Kemeny revisit the insights, standout moments, and expert voices that shaped a season devoted entirely to Structured Literacy. From defining integration to honoring teacher-researcher collaboration, we explore what’s evolved, what endures, and what’s next in the science of reading.
Season 7, Episode 12
Narrator 0:03
Welcome to literacy talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere, brought to you by Reading Horizons. Literacy talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights and practical strategies for helping all learners reach reading proficiency. Our hosts are Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor for Reading Horizons. Donell Pons, a recognized expert and advocate in literacy, dyslexia and special education, and Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author and speaker. Now let’s talk literacy.
Stacy Hurst 0:49
Welcome to this episode of literacy talks. I’m Stacy Hurst and I’m joined by Lindsay Kemeny and Donell Pons, and those of you who’ve been listening this season know that we have been focusing on the perspectives on language and literacy. 75th anniversary issue published by the International Dyslexia Association. And this episode, we are actually wrapping up this season, so we have the opportunity to discuss the things that we’ve learned throughout the from this publication and throughout our season, and just talk about some of the high points for us. We’ve had some fantastic guests, and this is the first time we’ve done a theme for the whole season, right? We’ve done some series before, but this has been a really unique thing for us, and I personally have loved it Donell Lindsay, what are some of your your feelings about how this season was? It
Lindsay Kemeny 1:47
was so fun to have a theme and do something different this season. So I love it that we could kind of dive deep into this great issue. And I really enjoyed the opportunity to kind of explore. And you know, it forces me to kind of read more deeply as I’m reading these different articles. So I definitely appreciate the opportunity and the discussions we’ve had. Yeah,
Stacy Hurst 2:11
done. Now, what did you think? Yeah,
Donell Pons 2:13
I thought it was really fun to be able to look at structured literacy again like this, and to have each aspect there was a really good expert or someone to comment on it, and it was nice to pull those pieces apart, see the hole and pull it apart. And it’s nice to have, I think, a reevaluation, if you will. So there were some folks who are very familiar with structured literacy. Have probably known the term and followed folks for years. And there are others who may be new to it, but so this, this new examination, was nice, and then to link that to some of the info graph or info map resources, that idea is putting out there as well, so that you can go to the website, you can click on, as we’ve talked about before, and we will again, you can click on various aspects of structured literacy in the info map and get additional information and Stacy. You pointed out many times they keep uploading, and that’s great, and so we’ll keep checking back to see what they keep adding to that. So I think it was really nice that way, to be able to explore everything that they’re trying to put into this and then re examine structured literacy. Yeah,
Stacy Hurst 3:12
and Donell, I think it go. We should acknowledge that this was your idea, and we’re glad that you had it, because for all the same reasons. You guys said it gave us all a chance to kind of refine, revisit and learn a little bit more about it. I know that right at the beginning of the the issue, it gives the history of the term structured literacy, which I think is worth noting, and I think it’s important for those of us in education to understand that history, the term is only been in existence since 2014 but there is something on page six of the physical man, the physical edition, that I thought kind of summed up nicely how, I Guess we all should, should move forward in this space as educators. But they said, as science, advanced idea evolved, as we evolved, our vision sharpened. And I think that’s what this season has helped me to do, to sharpen my vision and understand that that evolution that we’ve come through in regards to reading instruction. Also new for our podcast is the fact that we have had more guests this season than we have in the past, so we have a lot to talk about. And just right off the top of your heads, I guess, did you guys have some memorable moments for you this season,
Lindsay Kemeny 4:43
I loved interviewing Margaret Goldberg, having her on she is, you know, she’s a friend of mine because we met back in 2019 or I think it was 2019 and I just respect her so much. She. She is working in the schools as a literacy coach right now, and so it’s so interesting to hear her perspective and her day to day, because she’s living it. And I love hearing her story of how she transitioned from balanced literacy to, you know, kind of doing these experiments in her classroom and learning more about structured literacy and the science of reading. I just think she’s a wealth of knowledge. So that that interview definitely stands out for me, but it’s hard, it is hard to pick just one. I’ll let Donell go. But we had so many amazing guests this season.
Donell Pons 5:39
Yeah, we did. I think that’s a highlight for me. Would be all of the guests, because I think each one brought something very interesting, unique perspective, as you say, Lindsay Margaret is always a treasure. She’s very fun to listen to. She condenses things down so well. Her practical knowledge is so deep. And so if you didn’t get to hear that one, I highly recommend. And then David Hurford was one that maybe a lot of folks are not familiar with. The work of David Hereford, and he’s a researcher. He’s been at this for a long time, and he had a lot of information to share. It was one of those interviews where you don’t really interview, but rather he just gives you the whole thing. And it was great. We didn’t want to interrupt, and it was interesting, because I had somebody email me after, who said I was delighted. I had never heard of David Hurst before, but wow, what a wealth of information. And he really is just about all of the aspects of trying to turn literacy around, because he’s been involved in it, of course, working with different states on their legislation. So he was able to bring that piece in, and then also a little bit of history as to why he was interested in studying this particular thing, which was interesting as well. So I think that was an interesting one for folks who maybe aren’t familiar with him. And then again, Louise bear swirling, cannot say enough that she’s always so good at condensing very difficult things down into very understandable pieces. And she’s also very good at keeping track of what’s different between structured literacy and business as usual or a whole language model. She’s, she’s one of the best at that, I think, and that, additionally, Kate Cain was new for me. Anyway, I hadn’t really been very familiar with Kate Cain work coming out of a different sort of, you know, university ecosystem. But very, very interesting information about comprehension. So yeah, I think there were a lot of different things this year that were delightful. They
Lindsay Kemeny 7:27
are just such power houses in this field. And I always love listening to them. I think they’re really dynamic speakers, and what an honor to have them on.
Stacy Hurst 7:41
And I think they’re, they’re topic areas too, and Dr Cardenas Hagan about teaching students who may not speak English as their first language. And I always, I love this whole structured literacy model, the info map, and it helps me identify areas that I need to learn more about. And I know I have a list of things I want to continue to learn about based on their work. I personally meeting Louise spear swirling was a highlight of my career. I have done so I’ve read so much of her research before, even back when I was more in the balance literacy phase of my teaching, because that’s all we knew. So it was just delightful to have a conversation with her. And if you’ve listened to the episode, you know how much she knows, and the fact that we cannot overlook teacher knowledge that has got to be center, front and center professional development is really important for what we’re doing, and I know that was kind of came full circle considering where I am in my career right now. It really helped me go to work the next day, being even more dedicated to making sure my pre service teachers know what they need to know. And then, as far as the the issue goes itself. Did you guys have any important takeaways that you maybe refined your thinking or you highlighted as something interesting to you?
Lindsay Kemeny 9:16
Oh, there’s so many things I do want to say. I really loved Kate Cain article and her interview. I wasn’t able to be there. I was teaching during that time, and but listening to it, that is one that I want to go back and listen again. And I think I want to read the article and then listen to her again. But I loved her article about how structured literacy integrates comprehension and composition, how important it’s something we don’t talk about as as as often. Maybe, I mean we do now, but, but okay, important takeaways to your point, your questions. Stacy. I hope that everyone takes away that from all of these articles that systematic and explicit instruction is the most reliable method for teaching word reading and comprehension. It talked about that in one of the articles. I think it was read lines and Margaret Goldberg’s article. But I just think, I hope, like coming away from that that is a big takeaway, and that readers see that yes, because we still get, I think so many in the schools are still thinking, Oh, this discovery based, or, you know, well, those, it’s when we do, when we lead our teaching with a discovery based model. We’re leaving out so many students if they could discover it than they would have already, right? And so just to give the best chance for everyone is to teach them explicitly and directly from the beginning. And I just think that’s that’s it, one of my huge takeaways.
Donell Pons 10:56
I love that Lindsay. I think that is key too. I’m going to Yes, yes to that. And then add also it was in the article by Barbara Wilson, and that that was a rather extensive one, because in Barbara’s Wilson’s article, she went over the whole thing in the map and tried to give us the overview. But within that, there was something really interesting. And it was, it was a line that came out of there structured literacy may include a program to facilitate teaching certain skills like word recognition, spelling, et cetera, explicitly, like Lindsay said, systematically, but supported trained teachers drive this is the important piece, guys that we talked about a lot, the integration of instruction. I mean, that was another key word that kept coming up again and again as we looked at structured literacy, was integration of those skills. And I love how they pointed out a well trained teacher supported we talked about Margaret Goldberg’s interview, and conversation is essential to driving all of those pieces. So that was great. I
Stacy Hurst 11:57
agree. Donell 100% and as I was looking at the info map, I was thinking how comprehensive it is, not only the who, the what, the how and the why, but they’ve really outlined what the each of those sections mean. And looking at the how, you kept mentioning, I think we mentioned this throughout the season, the word integrated kept coming up, no matter what we’re talking about, though we’re not teaching any of these skills in isolation, right? Nothing is in isolation. And then even on the how under that, direct and systematic, like you were saying, Lindsay, everybody benefits from that. Exactly what that means, explicit, sequential, cumulative, multimodal, and all of those things do not lend themselves to isolation. They have to be integrated. So I think that’s really important.
Lindsay Kemeny 12:51
Yeah, I had another thing that was like, I was thinking about from all these articles and again, Donell, you were talking about Barbara Wilson’s article in Hurst, she said, talking about this research behind this info map and the science of reading that it’s not new, but always evolving. And I really loved that. And then in read lion Margaret Goldberg’s article, they said, you know, science doesn’t take sides. It illuminates a path. I love that visual science illuminates a path. And like we need to be careful not to succumb to confirmation bias, which is so easy. We’re all guilty of it at times, I think, and just, you know, just encourage ourselves and others to stay open, stay curious. I think that’s really important, because it’s it is just like Barbara Wilson says, science is always evolving, so we’re always going to be deepening and refining our knowledge. And there’s things that we don’t know now that we need to be open to, when, when we when we find out more about that. Makes sense.
Stacy Hurst 14:01
Yeah, the science illuminates the path, and at the same time, requires of us to be open to new research and integrating it into what we already know.
Narrator 14:13
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Stacy Hurst 15:08
what about important takeaways for our listeners? What would you say would be something that you would recommend? Well,
Donell Pons 15:16
I think we’ve talked about it, and so I would highly recommend that you can access this article free if you have not had the opportunity. So it’s always there. So in other words, if you’re overwhelmed right now it sounds like a lot to take on, don’t worry. It’s free. You can access it when you have time, and then come at it a piece at a time. If there was one thing that interested you, maybe you heard Lindsay talking about Margaret Goldberg conversation. You think I can start there. Start there. So that’s one thing I think I want people to take away, is this is not going anywhere. So it will be available if you haven’t had an opportunity to be able to come in contact with it in a way that is okay for you, and then to come back to it. So I may have already listened, maybe I read, but hey, maybe I’ve lost contact with some of those thoughts that I had at the beginning, or now that you’re mentioning it, maybe I’m interested in going back. So come back again. It will be here. It’s a resource that’s there for you. So I want people to always remember that, hey, if I didn’t get an opportunity to do it, it’s okay. You’ll have a chance to do it. The other thing that I want to point out, too, that I thought was fantastic. We talked about integration, and we’ve talked about how key that is with the structure of literacy and the info map pointing that out so well, but it was something in Kate Cain article. And again, it was, it was present over the whole thing. So it’s, it’s not to say she’s not the only one, but in it, she points out those four key areas of writing, composition and comprehension, and there are four key areas of instruction that have been researched she talks about, one is vocabulary and background knowledge. Two is sentence structure and grammar. Three is knowledge and use of text structure, and four is critical thinking skills. Think how big these buckets are for one just, just right there. Think how big the buckets are, such as inference and comprehension. That’s all part of critical thinking skills. And then monitoring, right that’s also part of that. And she says, Now think about all of that when we’re talking about reading a passage and having to access all of those that’s why the integration piece, again, if the integration kind of your thought, How do I? What do I? That’s what we’re talking about. Is when all of that is integrated, and then you get to reading the passage and how the layers and depth of understanding can be yours. That’s what that means, and also tells us where our work is, where the hard work and the lies right still
Lindsay Kemeny 17:27
and writing a passage, right? John is writing a passage too, and then even harder, because you’re thinking about the spelling and the physical act of either writing or typing. And
Donell Pons 17:37
yeah, absolutely. But here’s what’s interesting, Lindsay, and I’m glad you pointed that out, is that oftentimes when students aren’t able to get to a deep understanding of a passage, the comprehension isn’t quite there. We move on and expect them to write regardless, right? We don’t understand we do not give it its due. That those two things are so connected and so oftentimes, it should be no surprise that when you wind up in a writing class, the student who is struggling to understand a passage is sitting there struggling. So I really appreciate you bringing that up, because that’s very important. Yeah,
Stacy Hurst 18:08
yeah, it’s no wonder that Kate Cain just won the Hollis Scarborough award. And I think that speaks to kind of what you were talking about earlier, too, Lindsay with Margaret Goldberg and Reed lion, the fact that these partnerships become so powerful in the application
Lindsay Kemeny 18:25
Absolutely. And then to answer your question, Stacy on another takeaway, you know, I kind of jumped ahead, I think, because I was sharing, I want teachers to take away this importance of this explicit and direct instruction. Additionally, I hope that from looking at the info map and listening to this season of our podcast that you’ll see that, hey, structured literacy is a lot more than phonics. There’s a lot more going on. And you just take a look at that map, and you can see that because all those components are listed. And so when you hear, you know, an admin or another teacher or something incorrectly state that, oh, it’s just about phonics, but we need more than that. You can be like, yes, we do need more than that, and the science of reading supports that. Look at this info map, this kind of shows it. And then another takeaway is just that there is extensive scientific research that children need proficiency in all these different domains, so all these different language reading, related language domains that are in that map,
Stacy Hurst 19:30
yeah, well said, um, I also, as you were talking, was thinking, we’re talking about integration, and that it’s so much more than just phonics, and to know that if somebody is misrepresenting what structured literacy is, or if you are made to use a program, or you have input on a program, program selection, knowing that these elements need to be addressed is important as well, and giving feedback. On that. And I think this really helps. It also kind of helps give an outline for P, pl, professional learning or professional development, too, areas that we can focus on. I just as I read all the articles, and then towards the end when we heard, um, when Tim odegards article about MTSS, and we had a whole issue, a whole episode on that, but I was thinking back to my time as a classroom teacher, and I don’t think just because of the requirements of the day of every day. I wasn’t thinking systemically necessarily. I was way concerned, obviously, about what was happening in my classroom. But there is a system to structured literacy that is not we’re not teaching in a classroom, isolated in isolation, either. There are administrations and administrators and structure within our school and district that we should be looking for as well and supporting and participating in. So I know that our default is to come at this from the teacher perspective, but also as administrators, to think about this, the info map, or just the structure of structured literacy and the MTSS aspect of it that is important for assessment, that’s important for intervention, and how you support your teachers in applying all of these things. So maybe think more systemically would be something that I have taken away from this.
Donell Pons 21:32
You know, Stacy, it’s interesting. You should bring that up, because I was thinking about in the Louis spear swirling conversation, and we were talking about the reader profile. That was one of the things that came up. And she’s, she’s so good at that, so if you get a chance, if you haven’t listened, listen to that. And then there was also, we talked about how each of us own at least one or all of some of the books that she’s put out. And one is the structured literacy planner, among others. But that’s heavily the reader profile. And she leans, leans into assessment, and what to do with those assessment pieces. So that dialog between the teacher and the classroom, who needs information and really good information to be putting together the best instruction for students, the dialog between that teacher and administration, whether that be building level and then out from there, district level, is really important. The up and down of that communication and the back and forth of that communication to know, hey, we, in good faith, selected something we thought would be helpful or useful, and to get feedback and to have ways in which teachers can give feedback, because that’s another thing too. Is to show up to meetings or spaces where teachers are in their classrooms, because that’s where they’re at, right? They don’t have a lot of leeway that way. So setting a meeting or a location or a time in which teachers are able to give the feedback, I think, is really important too. So I love that that’s part of the conversation.
Stacy Hurst 22:51
Yeah, that’s great. I think about that. Even with school board meetings, I always had great intentions to attend, but at the end of a day, you have so many other things to attend to that it makes it kind of hard. I was also thinking, as you were talking Donell just how powerful this common framework and language could be within a school or a district for the students. And I was having a conversation this morning, actually, with a student, and I said, personally, as a teacher, I would not just send my students to intervention without knowing what they’re doing. There needs to be a lot of communication between the person providing that intervention and myself as the classroom teacher. And this kind of a framework gives everybody common knowledge and we’re focusing on that data right? Data driven is a key aspect of what structured literacy is. I think that’s going to serve the teachers and the student. Well, we anything else that you have thought about differently or refined your thinking as we have went gone through this season. Had all the great conversations we’ve had about this issue, something
Lindsay Kemeny 24:05
that read Lyon and Margaret Goldberg mentioned that we need collaboration between scientists and classroom teachers. They said it’s non negotiable. So I I just want, I guess, everyone listening to really think about that in your space, what you can do to help that collaboration. I think as teachers, I think we need more teachers speaking up and sharing the wonderful things that they’re doing in the classroom. And I don’t think like, I feel like sometimes we have this attitude where we hold up the researchers on a pedestal and and it’s like, come and learn at the their feet when it needs to be more equal footing. And I think we need to give as much respect to the teachers, because obviously I’m a little biased, since I am a teacher, but. So the teachers are doing it’s hard work what they’re doing, and when you have teachers who are doing it, well, we need to hear from them. And I love when I see that collaboration, and I see that respect, because I’ve seen that a lot too, where there’s amazing researchers who are getting in the classrooms and or when they’re presenting, have a teacher voice in there, or, you know, acknowledge that like I loved when I went to Dr widget camars, I remember her presentation at the reading League, and she brought with her the teachers and the school leader at the school that were implementing what she was talking about. So they were there if you wanted to go ask questions at the end. And I think she had one talk for a little bit. And I love to see that collaboration and kind of acknowledgement that we do need to hear from both. And I think if we want this work to move forward, we need to be talking more about implementation and teachers are the implementation scientists, right? Like Dr Hogan said that last year of Big Sky. So anyways, I love that they mentioned that in their article, and I just, I would love to see more collaboration. They’re both so needed. We so need the research and the researchers and experts explaining that, and we so need the teachers helping us with what they’re doing in the classroom.
Donell Pons 26:27
Yeah, I think that’s great. Lindsay, I loved hearing that and summing that up so well. And it also made me think about there’s sometimes a voice that I don’t always hear in the space that I think is important, and that’s from the folks who are receiving additional instruction outside of a school setting because they’re not able to get enough. And I think when we get a handle on just how many kids whose parents are able to because they have the means, who are getting that kind of additional support outside the school, because there just isn’t enough happening in the school, I think our eyes will be widely opened. Tim Odegard sort of touches on this a bit, particularly in his article and then in conversations, is just how much more a student with dyslexia needs. So I love that. Let’s having these great conversations around supporting teachers and teachers being able to work with researchers. So we’re getting somewhere in the classroom which would be amazing for all students, not just for certain students, for all students, that’s another thing we need to remember, everybody benefits when you have that kind of collaboration and really good instruction happening in a classroom. But then I’d also love to see us kind of try to measure, because I don’t know that we ever will or how, how much additional effort is being put forth by folks who, thankfully have the means, are able to find it in order to help those kids who need that much more to be successful with with things that are in the language realm. And I think that would be very interesting to open that come because it’s over. It’s huge, as Tim touches for us on this sort of thing in a lot of the work that he does, that’s a really interesting and I want to see more of that conversation too. I think this is all great, yeah,
Stacy Hurst 27:59
and that’s definitely an area of research that really can’t afford to not include the classroom or no matter what that instructional setting is. Yeah, right. I think about just how much I have learned as a teacher because somebody was researching students who could not learn to read as quickly as others, and in reality, I think, Oh, I can’t remember what page is on. This really terrible of me, but there is a part in this issue where it states that we have been taught to teach reading in a way that only affects the minority of our students, like a minority, like 30% of our students, but that’s how we’re taught to approach it. So without differentiation or data, informed assessment and instruction, then we are not going to move the dial for the majority of our students when we’re talking about that connection between research and practice. I know as a teacher, I could not do my job without researchers and and the things that they help us to know. And then I’d like to see on the other side too, researchers knowing and well, and I think they know it. But a lot of research is not education friendly, in a sense, some is, but it’s more like they think of it in a lab, in highly controlled situations, which teaching is not. Anybody who’s taught knows that you have not as much control as you think over what a kid’s gonna do or say, or you know when you’re videoing a lesson and a kid chooses to pick his nose or whatever, like that. That’s the messy reality. I’d love to see more research done as with the classroom as the lab. That would be great. And I do think for teachers, oftentimes, they’re told about research, but you can reach out if you have. University in your town reach out to the Education Department, ask if they’re doing any active research, and if your students can participate and you can collaborate with them to do that, yeah, and I’m sure district administrators could be having those conversations as well. That’s a really great thing to emphasize for the future, right? That can continue to add to this evolving science. Any final thoughts?
Lindsay Kemeny 30:31
My final thought is, don’t get overwhelmed. Try not to get overwhelmed. Start with one thing, right, one thing at a time,
Donell Pons 30:39
Donell, yeah, just saying, I mean, we pretty much said a lot of things, but just re emphasizing that the podcast isn’t going anywhere. So if you haven’t had a chance to listen, don’t worry. You can come back and hit it where you can, so there’s no sense of urgency, or I missed it. You didn’t miss anything. No FOMO. And then additionally, there is also a hard copy, so you can go back and say, Boy, I’d really like to learn more about that you can so you can access that and just remember the journey, right? It’s part. This is partly the journey, and to remember where you are right now versus where you’re going to be in a month, six months to a year. And I can’t wait to see it will be exciting.
Stacy Hurst 31:21
I have loved this season. I love this issue that we’ve been focusing on, in large part because I feel like we do need to survey large fields, cultivate small ones, and this gives us the framework to do that. So like you guys are saying, don’t feel overwhelmed. You have the framework work within it, there are a lot of resources that they have made available. And of course, keep your eye on the science. Think like a scientist, because guarantee, if we were to do the same type of episode in 10 years, we would be talking about something that has evolved in our knowledge and our learning, right and to our listeners, thank you so much for joining us this season. We really look forward to having you join us and future seasons of literacy talks.
Narrator 32:14
Thanks for joining us today. Literacy talks comes to you from Reading Horizons, where literacy momentum begins. Visit readinghorizons.com/literacytalks to access episodes and resources to support your journey in the science of reading.
