Narrator:
0:03

Welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere. Brought to you by Reading Horizons. Literacy Talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights, and practical strategies for helping all learners reach reading proficiency. Our hosts are Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and chief academic advisor for Reading Horizons; Donell Pons, a recognized expert and advocate in literacy, dyslexia, and special education; and Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author, and speaker. Now let's talk literacy.

Stacy Hurst:
0:46

Welcome to this episode of Literacy Talks. I'm Stacy Hurst, and I'm joined by Donell Pons and Lindsay Kemeny, and we talk about all things literacy. And today we are going to let Lindsay lead our discussion, and what we have to talk about is related to literacy, whether it's direct or indirect, right, Lindsay?

Lindsay Kemeny:
1:09

Yeah. Okay. Thank you, Stacy. I'm looking forward to this conversation. So it's it's kind of a follow up to the last time I led our podcast discussion. We talked about back to school and getting ready and all the things to do and focus on and and and this is a follow up to that because you know it's now for me this is about my fourth week of school and it's september 14 as we're recording this and I wanted to do a little follow up because I I'm going to be very honest and open. I have been having a rough time, and I did a little video post. So I was all like planning on my social media because I have you know my social media teaching with Lindsay Kemeny, and I was planning to share some back to school things and what we were doing, and I wasn't able to. And I came on and on, you know, on my social media and did a post, a little video, just explaining why and that I was having a rough time. And you know, I'm really glad I was so so open and honest because I got so many messages, just both comments and people reaching out and being like, "I'm so glad I'm not alone. Like I feel the same, and this is so hard. And the thing is, it's always hard. Like the beginning of the year is always hard, and I feel like I have every year. I feel like I tend to get the more complicated cases, but there's something different about this year, where I have so many, and it's it's no secret that the students today are very different than the students from like 20 years ago. I mean, my first year of teaching was the year 2000. I mean, the issues and the things we're dealing with-it's very, very different, and it's even different than five years ago. And now I'm like, it's even really different than just a couple years ago. And so it's been interesting. Like this particular group was born because I teach first grade. They were born in 2020, and I can't help to wonder if there is some kind of connection, and like I see, and of course, you know, when you're on social media, it like it feeds you things that you're looking at. So, but I just feel like over and over, I keep seeing in these other first grade groups of these teachers just being like,"What is going on with these kids? And they're having a hard time too. So, any initial reactions to this before I keep going?

Stacy Hurst:
3:45

I'm just relating in in so many ways. I remember as a first grade teacher having similar feelings, and you're right. The first of every school year is hard, no matter what. But then, as a literacy coach, I got to tell you, when I was looking at it from the perspective of a whole school, and I think every people listening can relate to this, there are what we called bubbles. There were certain grade levels that you knew just going through; they're going to be tough, and you watched them clear through from kindergarten through fifth grade. And sure enough, they were challenging, right? For whatever reasons, but

Lindsay Kemeny:
4:22

yeah,

Stacy Hurst:
4:22

I'm sorry, Lindsay. I'm empathizing with you.

Lindsay Kemeny:
4:28

Yeah, Donell, are you going to say something?

Donell Pons:
4:30

You know, I just think that we also have to think about how difficult it is for everyone to be starting at the beginning of a year, and listening, Lindsay. I think you've opened the door for others to be able to say the same thing, and that would be also for parents to say, "This is so hard starting the year again, and it's okay to say for kids too. This is so hard to be starting the year again, and so I'm glad that you are, like Stacy said, opening the door and allowing us to have this conversation. And I know you're going to take us places in this conversation where, if you aren't aware of some of the statistics behind and challenges for teachers in not getting burned out, then maybe this will be some new information for you. But this is something we're dealing with, and also an increase in challenging things that teachers have to deal with. So thank you,

Lindsay Kemeny:
5:23

and that's definitely where we're going to go because I want to talk about teacher mental health along with this. The you know managing behaviors they're so tightly connected, but we're going to focus first on like managing the behaviors that we see, and like I think we're we are seeing in schools right now, there's students with more behavior challenges and more escalated behaviors. So we're just seeing more in general, and then they're just escalated. And so like I think right now I have you know a handful of students who have more escalated externalizing behaviors, and I've been reading up on on this stuff to help me because I'm like, there's there's externalizing behaviors and there's internalizing behaviors, and I feel like I have a lot with kind of more extreme externalizing behaviors, which can be frustrating because you're just managing all those. So it's really kind of funny. I have a good friend who's a director, and she used to be a principal, and she used to before that she was a special education teacher. So she knows behaviors. And when I was talking to my friend, you know, she's like, you know, she starts like, okay, well, you do this, you do this, you do this. You know, you you expect 100% You wait. You practice it again. You turn. You know. You have them turn and talk. You come back together. You do, and all like everything she was saying. I'm like, well, yeah, yeah. I do that. Yeah, I know. I know that. Yes, I know that. I okay, yes. And so for me, it's just like, okay, I do know what to do. I do know what to do, and I just have to realize that this group is going to need more practice with it, and it's just going to take more time, you know. And you definitely have some that it's there is a medical reason why it's so challenging, you know. But you have others that like they can be trained. I think no, they they can, you know, and so it's going to be more of that practice. So, so maybe we just start like, what does good classroom management look like? What do you guys think?

Stacy Hurst:
7:36

Well, I think it's very different in our situations, but I will tell you because I deal with pre-service teachers, they are afraid. They are afraid of this very thing. Even my class that we're starting tutoring tomorrow, one-on-one, and already their biggest concern is what if I get a kid who has behaviors right? And I had a student who actually took the class twice, and the second time around, she was giving advice to the students, and she's like, "They can sense it. They can sense it. If you're scared, if you're angry, if you're like, you have to be calm and in a place of zen. And I have to tell my students, just like you were saying, Lindsay, you guys can manage. You're the adults in the situation. You can manage this. It's not going to be like those little six year olds are not going to overtake the world, right? Like you, you've got to be able to identify behavior and model good behavior and be patient, which is sometimes the hardest thing. Which is why the first few weeks of first grade were always really hard for me because they left as second graders, they come as kindergartners, and that transition was tough because it required patience.

Donell Pons:
8:54

You know, something I found interesting is that about 39% of educators reported that they received no explicit classroom management instruction in their teacher preparation program. I thought that was interesting. So for those of you who receive some, I guess you're lucky and be grateful that you did. But there are many teachers that don't, and so they are probably floundering. They they are probably looking for help and not quite sure exactly what to do. Another statistic I ran across along with it, that was interesting. Is that even though we know that positive feedback is the best way to manage students, it was looking like 50% of the teachers admitted that they didn't use positive feedback because then you get stressed, and so you they didn't remember to do those things. So that's the other thing is the preparation piece helps us because we will become overwhelmed at different times, things will become difficult and challenging. That's that preparation piece. I thought it was interesting when I was doing my teacher training. You had to have a whole classroom management book. It was a three-ring binder, and we had different files for different things. But you had scenarios, and you had to come up with your classroom management strategies. And I found that all very helpful and very useful. If that isn't something that was done for you, maybe that's something you can do for yourself. But I think the planning piece was the piece that makes you feel most comfortable. It's looking over your classroom to see how it's arranged, who's sitting with whom, and it's okay to make changes when you need to make changes. And then something else I don't want folks to forget about is how important parents are in also having a relationship in that classroom, and I really appreciated the teachers that would call me up as a parent to say, "Hey, look, I'm noticing a little something. And the earlier they did that, I was just so relieved because then it got me involved and on board. And I remember one of the teachers saying to me once, "It was with one of my kids, and he's pretty-he's pretty good to manage, but you know he could get in there. And I remember she called me, and I'm sure it was uncomfortable. And we had a quick conversation. I said to her, "Thank you so much for talking to me. I will take care of it tonight, and I will get back to you tomorrow about the conversation I have with him. And she said, and later we talked, and she said, "I didn't expect you to call me back. I she said, "I didn't. I did not expect that to happen. And I did call her back the next day and said, "This is what we said. This is my expectation. Please let me know if it if if he doesn't meet it. And she said,"I can't tell you how much that meant to me for you to do that. So again, that's another piece to remember as your parent.

Lindsay Kemeny:
11:15

So that is, I think, I I used to mentor new teachers in our school district, and that is like the number one thing that they had to get a handle on on, and that was really you know hard for them was managing the class, and so so like you said, I it is probably a big thing, Stacy. Like you're focused on literacy teaching those pre-service teachers, but like and they don't have a class just on class management. I assume

Stacy Hurst:
11:43

they do, but not until after they take the literacy classes.

Lindsay Kemeny:
11:47

Okay, I see. So they do have one at least, but I think it's even like you you need the experience, and you need yeah you do applying it. Yeah, and sometimes they don't understand. Like yeah, you can say no. Like they don't want to say no to a child or something. Like they want to be so positive, but no, you do have to say no. And I remember myself learning that even just like when a student was wrong, and I did. I just remember being like a first year teacher and not wanting to say they were wrong, but it's like oh, you need to say that was wrong. Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:
12:19

that is kindness. Yeah,

Lindsay Kemeny:
12:21

yeah, but yeah, of course you can do it. Like you can be firm, but you can be kind at the same time. And I've been thinking a lot about expectations, and I decided I don't want to lower my expectations. Like I, I run a really tight ship in my classroom, and I'm kind. I'm not mean, but I am firm, and I do have high expectations for all my students. So I was just thinking, no, I want to get there. I want to get as as well run as we are every year that I teach. But my expectations need to change in the in in realizing it might take a little bit longer to get there. But I still am going to have those high expectations, and like I was just saying, like earlier, I was just saying, of course, some students, some of their behavior, there's a medical reason they have that behavior, but it doesn't mean that you're like, oh, they're not going to be able to do it. So, and that's not what I meant when I was saying earlier, because they still can be taught. It's just yeah, it's going to be a lot harder for them, and I and I'm going to do things like some kids are going to have a lot harder time sitting in their seat, and I you know get get them a little wobble cushion or something or something so they're sitting there wiggling around or put them in the back where so they can stand or whatever. So you know thinking about that, so I'm like I don't want to lower my expectations, but but I have to adjust them and just realize it's going to take more from me to get them there. My management normally I don't have to do a lot of like extrinsic motivation. I feel like you know I expect a lot about my students. I do a lot a lot of positive praise, which is really good for good classroom management, praising them, noticing the ones who are doing it right. I love how this person is sitting, this person, this person. We forget and like, oh, let's practice that again. Let's let's try that again. Let's walk down the hall again. Or how do we line up? Lots of that. But this, and then and then I do, and and anyone who's read my books know that I do the little T chart with a T for teacher on one side, the S for students on the other. I first learned about this through whole brain teaching, and some of the teachers listening probably familiar with that. So, if whenever students are are being great and following directions, listening, like saying the sounds as they write, I'll give them a point. So I give points. Now, anytime I need to redirect them, I'm going to do a teacher point, and of course, I want them to get lots of student points. So I give lots of opportunity. So. Honestly, that has always worked so well for me. And then at the end of the day, we turn the amount of points they've gotten into marbles in our classroom marble jar. And when the jar is full, we get a party. And it's really kind of like a secondary thing. It's almost like the point system is enough to really keep them in line.

Stacy Hurst:
15:22

Yeah, as you were talking about, I was thinking back. I actually had quite extensive behavior management training as a pre-service teacher in the first university I attended. In fact, I thought it was too much, but in truth, it really served me well because I did become the behavior interventionist in our school, and I was able to apply a lot of these things, but the first thing I was thinking of when you were talking about that, Lindsay, with I was like, they need a more immediate reward. And yes, you do have to start out sometimes. I don't like to start out with extrinsic motivators either, but when you are there, you have to. You'll remember this, but I think a lot of people forget you have to take them away. We're trying to change the behavior, not just manage, you know that and bribes. We're not we're not about that. So we really have to focus on the behavior. But I was thinking also because we studied it so extensively, so we do know behavior therapy, which is a whole science, right? That's what I was gonna say next because I landed on and I loved this theory, but you have to make it your own. But it's love and logic for the classroom, and that puts it on the students to help. So my verbiage in a classroom every day would be like, "Oh, I hope you choose to come to our fun center on Friday, but it's totally up to you. You're gonna show me by your behavior and your choices, and then when they started doing something that was not in a line aligned with what we would expect, I'd say, "Oh, it looks to me like you're choosing not to attend. Totally up to you. You decide what you're going to do. I'm happy to, you know, spend time with you practicing while everybody else is at the at the fun center or whatever. And then empathy when they say inevitably because they're six year olds, six year olds, and they're gonna say this is stupid or I hate this, and I just use empathy. Yeah, probably so. That was the verbiage, and it helped me stay centered too. Yeah, I get it. That's a bummer. But again, putting it back on them-it's their choice. These are the expectations, and I love how you're not lowering your expectations of them.

Lindsay Kemeny:
17:28

And then trying to remind another thing is like I'm trying to focus on what they should be doing, not what they're not doing. So what I've been saying over and over now: quiet mouth, quiet hands. But anyway, so I'm just trying to say instead of saying stop talking or don't do this or don't touch that person or don't this don't this, I'm like quiet hands quiet mouth quiet hands quiet mouth and trying that and then my my friend said get a like I think I need a little visual picture I think I need a visual picture like to keep on my lanyard where I could just point to that even than say quiet hands, quiet mouth. So,

Stacy Hurst:
18:03

yeah, some of the verbiage in love and logic is things like feel free to keep your hands on your lap, feel free to focus on me, feel like you're just being positive about it. But I would have to be

Lindsay Kemeny:
18:13

direct because they're feel free. Oh, nah, I'm good. You can say feel free. I think put your hand. No, I think

Stacy Hurst:
18:23

everybody's different. You have to make it your own style. That's the thing I learned. But I was always surprised at how well they responded, even the toughest kids, which I got because I was previously the behavior interventionist. But also, I think it is helpful to my the rule in my classroom, and I didn't just make the rule. I led them to believe we were all choosing this rule. But again, it was feel free to do anything you'd like to, as long as it doesn't interfere with your learning, somebody else's learning, or safety. And then you could address a lot of things under that umbrella. You know, oh, we're we're talking a little loud right now, and I'm thinking that's going to be hard for some of our friends to learn, so we're going to have to, you know, let's feel free to use your quiet voices.

Narrator:
19:08

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Donell Pons:
19:57

And what's interesting is a lot of teachers deal with behavior. So this is not something that just a few are dealing with.

Lindsay Kemeny:
20:03

Right.

Donell Pons:
20:04

Some of the statistics that are interesting is that teachers report that they are dealing with it constantly. 80% of teachers report addressing student behavior problems at least several times a week. That's 80% and 58% say they deal with it daily. And this is behavior that takes a lot of energy to address. They're not just typical, you know, things that are going on in the classrooms. This would be above and beyond or unusual. That's a lot. In other words, there are a lot of teachers dealing with it. And to your point, Lindsay, about it taking time, I remember there was a teacher that came into one of my children's elementary schools in the elementary setting, and he was a third grade teacher, and he came with a lot of buzz behind him. Oh, he's teacher of the year! Did you hear that? There was so much buzz before this teacher got to the school, and one of my children happened to be in his class for his first year at this elementary school, and he spent the first month of the school reviewing how they would walk through the halls. So I remember coming over to go into another of my students' classrooms or my kids' classrooms, and he would be taking his classroom around all through the elementary school and walking around quietly as a group, keeping them hands to themselves and not saying anything, demonstrating their behavior to do that. And so it was really interesting because I asked him about that one time we got to having a conversation, and he was really great. I have to admit, he was a really great guy. But a lot of the parents were very disturbed by this. It's been a month. Why are you making our kids walk around? And he said, "I want to take care of things in the first month that I don't want to be dealing with for the rest of the year. And he says, "It may take me a month. It may take me two months. It may take me three, but it's going to take what it takes. And I thought that was really interesting. It's going to take what it's what it takes. He said. So, yeah, to your point, it may take more time.

Lindsay Kemeny:
21:44

Yeah, and it's just-I mean, I can't help but wonder about the effect of some students are like they have been exposed to long amounts of time on a screen from the time they were babies, and I do believe that is changing students' attention and ability to focus. And you know, I yeah, I just like I read the Anxious Generation this summer, and so I just like keep thinking about that because I'm like I have never seen this from so many students, and so it's just been. I'm just like physically and mentally and emotionally exhausted when I go home. It's been so hard on me because I've been like, like I am usually so excited to go to school. So this is unusual. Like I, I know, like we always, and as first grade, younger grade teachers. I mean, this is normal. You always are managing, but when you feel like all you're doing is managing, you're not getting to the teaching. This is hard for teachers. It is there is just this connection, and I have felt just because this has been mentally exhausting. I have felt like, you know, I come home, and I could not like I could not do those back to school posts for for my followers on social media because I was just I couldn't I cannot think about this another second. I have to do something else to help me cope, and I think maybe it's something we don't talk about enough. I mean, and and we probably didn't talk enough about you know the students and helping the students. And yes, we care so much about the students and meeting their needs, but the teacher needs are also critical, important, and we forget that sometimes I think, and we might just say, "Just take care of yourself, but we literally have to take care of ourselves. And for me, this last month, I have just seen, like, I've just been so exhausted that I've just really had to be very intentional about doing things to help me cope with the stress because I literally thought I was going to have a nervous

breakdown. So my question:
24:04

What are things that help you to handle stress? What helps you?

Donell Pons:
24:15

Well, particularly when you're dealing with students. So I think there are a few things that that we should make teachers aware of if they're not aware that their union has resources and to definitely reach out because those resources should be available to them and they have a right to receive them. So there should be mental health support and other resources that are available to teachers. And if that hasn't been made known to you and it's not talked about, then please do reach out and find out what those resources are, because you're entitled to receive that support. The other thing is that new teachers, because we do know this about new teachers, is that they report feeling more overwhelmed. So we find out that that teachers in general, about 45% of them, feel stressed or more stressed in other professions. And what we find out is that if you're a new teacher within the first five years, that moves up to like 66% And so, particularly with those new teachers, you should also be receiving some support and training from a teacher who's a teacher that has a more background, more years at your school. And a lot of teachers report not receiving that. I was one of those who didn't receive that, so I was supposed to receive that. It's a training, a tutor, a mentor, and that was never given to me. So I'm brand new teacher, figuring this out, and I have no one. Apparently, I was supposed to have a mentor teacher. I never did, and so those are other situations we don't want to put teachers in. So right away, I'm just thinking of things that should be within the system that teachers can reach out and ask, "May I please receive this help? If they're not receiving it? That should be given to them anyway. But make sure you're getting that. And then I think it's interesting to point out that Vanderbilt has Vanderbilt University has free resources at a place called the Iris Center, and they're all they're free resources for how to manage really difficult behaviors in a classroom, and also how to be involved with groups that discuss management, so if that's not something you've received, and that's a nice little resource from Vanderbilt University, and then there was a really great video that's been posted a while ago, but it's worth going back to, and that's Anita Archer, and I know she's one of our favorites on here, and definitely yours, Lindsay, and she's got a YouTube video. It's about an hour and some in length, so it's a little long, but very, very good. And it's called pressing the reset button on classroom management. And if you haven't watched it, or if you've watched it in the past, it's worth a rewatch. But it's free on YouTube. That's Dr. Anita Archer, and that's a really good one too because she goes over all those. Okay, if this is tough, this is difficult, and even if you've gotten in maybe a few months and it's feeling really hard still, you can press the reset button, which I think folks need to hear. And then I also think that you need to, if you really do need more than what you're receiving, what I really want teachers to do is to go to a website called NeuroLaunch.com, and they have a free. It's called Mental Health Resources

for Teachers:
27:09

Essential Tools for Educator Wellbeing, and they have a questionnaire that you can answer. And on that questionnaire, you answer just how often you're feeling certain feelings as a teacher, to to give you a barometer of okay, is this something that oh you know it's not great but I'll be okay? Is this something that I should be reaching out, getting some resources for? Because oftentimes I think as teachers we feel like we got I got to do this I have to do this I got this. Well, I'll make this all work, and sometimes maybe we need an outside source to tell us no. You know what we need some help. Let's bring somebody in because oftentimes we don't like to do that. We like we like to be resourceful, and we're going to get this done. So I really appreciated that they had a questionnaire that you could you could answer some questions and just kind of find out where am I at? Where am I at with this? Yeah.

Lindsay Kemeny:
27:55

Great, Stacy. What? How do you cope with stress?

Stacy Hurst:
28:03

Not very well, actually. I will be really honest. I try to ignore it as long as I possibly can. See, a teacher,

Donell Pons:
28:11

you just do it, right? You get it done. Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:
28:13

you just get focused. You know this, Lindsay. You're there too. Like you're focusing on the next thing, the next thing, the next thing, and you just don't. But I will tell you, my body does this thing that, like, when I get to the breaking point, I need a nap. I know that sounds oversimplified, but that is my reset. Like, my body will be like, "Nope, we're not doing this anymore. You're going to sleep. Like, and I sometimes that's 20 minutes, sometimes it's an hour and a half. But it really, if I have the luxury of having the time to nap, right? But that's helpful too. And Lindsay, I know we're in the same state. I don't know if your your district and my university have the same health insurance, but I recently learned that under my health insurance, I can get as many as six therapy sessions for free, and some massage services too, and I don't know as much about that. But like maybe check in that could be something that helps. What have you been doing? Like this is stressful.

Lindsay Kemeny:
29:14

Yeah, I know it has. And and let me just say, I think sleep is a huge one. So that was a good idea. And even if you don't have time to nap, going to bed early, and just getting you know getting your sleep is going to be huge. But for me, like a few different things. Okay, the first one is is dance. You guys know that last year I started. You know, I grew up dancing, and last year I got into dancing again, and I was on a salsa dance team, and that was so fun, and so this this season you have to try out every season. So this season, I tried out for the salsa team and the ladies bachata team, and I made both teams, and I chose, but I only have time for one, and so I chose the ladies bachata team this year or this season. And so that started just a couple weeks ago. That is huge for me. Going there and dancing is so like oh, it just puts me in a wonderful mood. I love it. I love expressing myself that way. Then throughout the week, like it's only once a week, but then I'm thinking about the dance we're learning, the routine, and so I can kind of practice throughout the week, and I have that to look forward to. So, so I would say, like to our listeners, like any kind of hobby, maybe it's gardening, maybe it's just even binge watching a show. You know, some people like to run. You know, I like to go on walks, but the dance is like really brings me joy, so I'm so happy that I I found that. And then the other thing that really helps me is listening to music when I'm going through a really hard time. And so I like to go on a walk and then listen to music. And I had to I usually listen to education podcasts. I couldn't I couldn't I had to completely disengage and check out, and so I was just listening to music on my walks until last week. Guess what? So you can tell, like things, it's getting a little better because last week I was like, okay, I can listen to some education podcasts again. And then another, just kind of funny one is on social media. Watching funny teacher videos was kind of helpful, like on Instagram or whatever, where they have these really great little comedian teachers that put together these funny skits, and and like just making fun of some of the stuff we all we deal with. So laughing about it was just was awesome, and the other thing is I've had to set boundaries, setting boundaries is is important. I think for all of us, it used to be where I just didn't respond to emails in the evening, but I might still check them. But now I just don't even check them. So that tab is closed when I'm home, and I'm I can't even check my school email. It's just like that's how like much it like was affecting me. I guess just I used to, and I stopped this a while ago, but I used to earlier in my teaching years had a little like a texting app that parents could use to get a hold of me and text me on my phone, and so that you know we could communicate. I've had to. I that I had to put a stop to that. I cannot get texts from parents in the evening out of outside of my hours, and just and plus even during the school day, I ignoring my phone usually. Anyways, especially this year, like there's no way I could go and look at a text because every enter all my energy is like like with this class, so so that's like another thing, and and this one also I I mean I used to do this and it's been about two years since I did did this but I used to always choose one or two students and offer extra intervention for them before school, and I had to. I had to stop that too. It's just like your teachers. You love your students so much. You want the best for them. You. I mean, it's emotionally tiring, but I had to be like, I can't keep doing all this extra. Like you know. So anyway, um, I had I I saw someone post online one time. Actually, this was pretty recently where they said, um, oh, like how did they say it? They said like not to care. Like how did they say it? It really rubbed me the wrong way when I read it. Um, it was like, don't care more about your students than your parents than their parents care about them, and I I thought that was like so terrible when I read that because I was just like I I care about my kids so much like and a lot of times we're the one sometimes there's really sad situations where you are the only one that's gonna really fight for that child, I talked a little bit about that the end of last season on the podcast, but at the same time, I understand what they're talking about because they are saying like at some point there is this thing called compassion fatigue, and it is it's so true. We hold teachers hold this emotional load like it, it's really hard. And so, at some point, you've got to let it go, you know. And and you can't just take on all like 25, you know, whatever, all the all the emotional stuff going on with them, and take that all on. And that, I mean, that's so hard. But I, I, so that first thing I saw really rubbed me the wrong way, but then I'm like, I understand you do have to let it go. You can't like just go home at night just with all this burden weighing on you. So anyway, I so and I do and one other thing that I think. Helps. This is a little bit of a soapbox. I it is. I do think it's okay for teachers to vent, and I think it is not healthy to keep things bottled up. So I think if you have a trusted friend or person that you go to, and you kind of tell them, vent to them a little bit. Oh my gosh, this is what happened! I can't even believe it. Listen to this, you know. And even as teachers in my hallway, you know, several of us dealt with things in after school. Like last week, we were just kind of trading stories, and it was really just mentally helpful. It just felt good to get that out. And I don't think that we should chastise a teacher for venting because you have this idea that, like, it's almost like this toxic positivity, right? Have you heard that? I've heard that before, where it's like, oh, that's so terrible. You should just be like, everything is great and be really positive all the time. But at some point, we need to talk about the hard things that we're dealing with in our classrooms, and we should be allowed to talk about that without getting chastised. And I will say, even when you have are having a hard time with a student, you still care about that student now. It's never okay for them to call names, you know, or scream at a student, call names to them. And there's definitely a line to be drawn. And at some point, it's like, okay, we get it, move on, right? But we need, and so we need to be respectful. But it's also, it's okay to vent, in my opinion. What do you guys think?

Donell Pons:
36:41

Well, I think sure, but I mean, we do need to be careful. You want to make sure that it's not the same child that everyone's piling on, and you want to make sure, right? Yeah, that that we end things on a positive note. That you know, it'll be a better week. I'm sure we'll figure things out. You know, you want to make sure you're doing that because I think it's pretty easy to get down in a school setting, so you want to make sure you're remaining positive and uplifting because we do all have to make it to the end of the year, and so yeah, you just but but definitely don't want anyone to feel ashamed if they do need some help and you know no, and I'm definitely

Lindsay Kemeny:
37:15

not saying you would ever vent in front of the child, right? No, no, never. Yeah, and so yeah, for sure not that. And you would never want them like you. I mean, everyone like no one's perfect, so everyone you know you might lose your patience or something. But you're not. You're always you know, you're not. You don't want that child to know that you're so frustrated with them, right? Like, but I think it's okay. You have your friend. You have your teacher next door, and you are like, ah, this is what happened, you know.

Stacy Hurst:
37:47

And kids are amazing. Sometimes they don't realize that, right? Like they love you anyway. They they don't see your struggle. I you're just no, yeah, they don't. Yeah, I and they love you. They like love you anyhow. I was just thinking at the beginning of every school year, I would have lunch with a different student, and you really get to bond and get to know him in a very like enjoyable way. You know, I wasn't like teaching them anything in the moment, and they they loved it so much that going forward, they said, "Can we just have lunch with you when we celebrate our birthday? So it was like the birthday time, and I remember I had one kid that took me a long time. I'll be honest, to love, he was tough, and it was his birthday coming up, and I was just like dreading. Oh man, I have to blend in this kid. Like I loved him, but like he was hard, and I was just not about it that day. I remember this, and I will be darned if by the end of that school year he was the one that I was going to miss the most. I think when you put all of your time and energy and concern and love, like you're talking about Lindsay, into a student or a class, coming out on the other end is always that much more rewarding, but man, that other end is sometimes really far away. So I think you're going to have a great outcome, but that doesn't make the messy middle middle any more enjoyable.

Lindsay Kemeny:
39:15

Well, let's end the conversation on talking about like what can we do to support, like what does support look like? What could administration or anyone do in the building to support teachers? So it's definitely

Donell Pons:
39:28

being being aware of resources and making sure teachers are aware of those resources. So I think that I can't emphasize that enough. It's very important because there are resources. Stacy, you've mentioned a few even your university setting that are available. I would hope every other professor realizes those are available to them too. But you want to make sure that you're giving that message early and often to teachers to make sure that they're aware of the various ways in which they could access support should they need it, and that needs to be normalized. So as I said, early and often it needs to. A normal conversation, and you need to do check-ins. I think administration could do more to check in, and don't make it the job of the teacher who's already managing so much in a classroom to have to come and seek out. Hey, should I be getting a mentor? Don't make it so. Make sure you're checking in to say, Hey, has that mentor been meeting with you? That's your job to make sure that's happening. Not yet another thing for the teacher to manage. So I think there are some low-hanging fruit of things that just should be part of a system. Any good, healthy system that supports a teacher, and we need to make sure those are being done.

Lindsay Kemeny:
40:30

Yeah, I want to jump on that when you're saying don't like because the teacher is managing all this stuff, and so I would say like don't just say okay, keep track of all those behaviors, document everything, but actually provide them the physical paper that to document. Okay, this is what you're going to do here, or okay, don't just say use some kind of tracker. Go find one because it's like when do I have time to do that? You know, but it's like if you can go, here are like two different versions of this tracker that I think might work in this situation. Do you think one of those would, you know? And and I think as much as you can, not just sending a teacher to somewhere to go look, but like give them the thing, like give provide it for them.

Stacy Hurst:
41:14

Yeah, and systemically, some of the best schools I've worked in, been a part of, and that I'm observing now, they have an overall school-wide kind of behavior management system, so a student may or may not earn-that's not a good thing-their way into a special room where somebody is literally working on skills with them to you know engage in the classroom in appropriate ways, or and having that kind of a support from the administration, or having the administration be involved with communicating with the parents along with the teacher, or saying, you know what, let's work on this behavior plan together and be aware of those students who have those needs and check in. I think that goes a long way.

Lindsay Kemeny:
42:00

But I also wanted to mention the fact that, like, we want to support our families too, because you know, as a teacher, yes, we might be having a really hard time with a student, and it's important, so important for us to remember that student is having a hard time too. And it helps me sometimes to think about, like, okay, I only have to, you know, this is going to be a challenge for me for a year, but for this child, it's going to be a challenge for them their like entire life. And then the fam and the the parents, like they also need support because some of the parents are just at their wit's end. And how frustrating to get an email from from the school, you know, or especially if it's happening year after year, day after day, week after week, where they're getting like these negative emails from the school, and they might feel a little lost too. So I just think I don't know if we have time to talk about it, but like you know, I and Donell, you saw those those that support those websites for teachers. Are they for families as well? Because I just imagine there's a lot of parents that also need help.

Donell Pons:
43:02

Yeah, the free resources on Iris at Vanderbilt University have resources for parents as well. Yeah.

Lindsay Kemeny:
43:07

Okay, so that's good to know. But I mean, I just think it's not like I don't have a you know tunnel vision here where it's not just the teacher. I mean, that is kind of what we're focusing on today. But there's so many pieces, and and people are having a hard time, and we had just in in our community we had a tragic event just a couple weeks ago and I just thinking families are hurting as well and so you know we just we need to be considerate of everyone's mental health I guess it's just the note to leave on but I'm hopeful I mean like I said the last three days went a little better it's just it's going to be an exhausting year. It just is, and but we're going to get there, and and I'm excited to see where these guys are at the end of the year, and maybe we need to do a check in on the podcast, like some a little bit in a couple months or something.

Stacy Hurst:
43:56

You know we will. You know we will, and I do think that your year is going to end well, and we know one thing about especially first graders-they thrive in consistency, and you're being consistent. And at some point, that is gonna things are gonna take a turn, and and you're gonna be off to the races. Any closing words of encouragement, Donell or Lindsay? No,

Donell Pons:
44:19

we said it. We did it. We

Stacy Hurst:
44:21

did, yeah. Just yeah, and you will have to keep us posted, Lindsay.

Lindsay Kemeny:
44:25

Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:
44:25

and for those of you who are in the trenches like Lindsay is, and I mean, it is a different situation in higher ed, and and Donell, you and I both tutor a little bit different one on one too, but but I really appreciate the focus on our own well-being and mental health, and we cannot be present for anyone, let alone our students, if we're not in a good situation ourselves. So, that is our ending message. Thank you for listening today, and for those of you who will be joining us in the future, thank you for joining us. For future episodes of Literacy Talks,

Narrator:
45:06

thanks for joining us today. Literacy Talks comes to you from Reading Horizons, where literacy momentum begins. Visit readinghorizons.com/literacytalks to access episodes and resources to support your journey in the science of reading.