Episode 113: Literacy Improvement Moves at the Speed of Leadership

Narrator:
0:03

Steve, welcome to literacy talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere, brought to you by Reading Horizons. Literacy talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights and practical strategies for helping all learners reach reading proficiency. Our hosts are Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor for Reading Horizons. Donell Pons, a recognized expert and advocate in literacy, dyslexia and special education, and Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author and speaker. Now let's talk literacy.

Stacy Hurst:
0:47

Welcome to this episode of literacy talks. I'm so excited today because Lindsay and Donell and I have been focusing our last few episodes on change makers. And if you haven't noticed, we're trying to cover change makers at every level, and I think this is a level that is sometimes left out and maybe unrightfully so. So our guest today is none other than Justin Browning, and he is going to talk to us. We're going to visit with him about how implementation matters when we're trying to make a difference for students, and a little bit about what he's done to do that. Just some background information, if you go to conferences, you know Justin, like he is there and he's the guy to know. And actually, that's how we met, Justin, right? Big stuff.

Unknown:
1:36

I think we were at a table together, maybe accidentally on purpose,

Stacy Hurst:
1:39

accidentally on purpose. Multiple times it was like, these are my people. So anyway, it's so fun to have you here. Thanks for joining us. Glad to be here. Thank you. Yeah? Lindsay Donell, yeah, we all go way back with Justin, right?

Lindsay Kemeny:
1:53

We love Justin. We're so glad you're here. Yeah,

Stacy Hurst:
1:56

okay, so we'll just start out with background questions for the very few people who may not know who you are, just tell us about your background. How did you get here? What roles have you had? What shaped about shaped? How you think about literacy, schools, leadership, that kind of thing.

Unknown:
2:13

Good question. How did I get here? I'm still asking myself that every day. I'm unsure, however, at my at my core, I'm an educator. I'm a teacher. I was in the classroom for about nine years. Many of my years in the classroom were spent in second grade. I have a soft spot for second grade, and really, from there, I was on the path to leadership. And so actually, I wasn't even really going to finish college. Let me go ahead and start there. I was working nonprofit work, and I was doing some work that actually was paying more than teaching. And I thought, huh, I don't need a degree. And then actually, I was like, Okay, I do need a degree, because deep down, so I'm going way back deep down. I knew that teaching was somewhere in my in my future, it was a mission trip that I was on with the church group a long time ago, and we were in Far Rockaway New York. We worked with a school there over the summer. And actually have a picture right over here in my office of me as a should I grab it? Hold on. Yes. This is really bad. Oh, Justin in New York, and we were working with this really impoverished school there that was serving really a neighborhood that needed support, right? And so it just opened my eyes to hey, I think this is a place where I feel at home, where I feel connected, and actually have my master's degree now, and I'm considering a doctorate, a doctorate degree. So it's not education. It's not completely out of the picture. But I went back and I completed my education degree, actually, luckily, at the University of Mississippi, which is, of course, closely connected with the Barksdale reading Institute. So in my undergrad years, I had exposure to the work that they were doing as well, which, if we want to think about like, how did I get to where I am now, there were little seeds that were sown along the way that I didn't even know why, but I can recall being at a school in the poorest parts of Mississippi as well, and walking into a school one day and thinking, does this school have a janitor like it was, it was the dirtiest school I'd ever been in. Wow. And the crazy thing is that you would think this place is just ridden with poverty. These kids probably aren't learning or doing anything, and it was the complete opposite. The kids were reading like their hair was on fire. The teachers were teaching with intention. And it was, it was an it was a magical moment for me as an educator, as someone who had that seed from long ago in New York, in me right now, seeing this in Mississippi, and really, I think that's how I got to where I'm. Today is that I just believe that everybody deserves the gift of literacy, right? Because, really, literacy is a language of opportunity, and I think that's that's why I am where I am. I see how many. I see how it opens doors and how illiteracy closes doors, and how it limits the voice and the choice that people have. If you're illiterate, people are making choices for you. Someone else has a voice at the table. And so that's what my passion is, is really to make sure that every student gets an education where they live a life of voice and choice. And so like I said, I was a teacher, and I believe that as I was teaching, I was a model classroom teacher for the Rollins center for language and literacy, which is also a seed that was sown. Was sown that becomes a part of my story. And I was doing that work, I was on the path to administration, so I got my master's degree in administration, and I ended up being at this kind of crossroads of after being an instructional coach for a little while, so as an instructional coach at a turnaround school. But after being an instructional coach at a turnaround school, I was at this crossroads of like, okay, what do I do now? Is this where I am going? The path of administration. Do I want to pursue something else? And then through my relationship with the Rollins center for language and literacy as a model teacher teaching second grade, I was able to work with their team over the summers, really facilitating summer learning as a coach with them and a supporter of their work. And I got a tap on the shoulder from Dr Ryan Lee James, who is the director of the Rollins center and also the chief academic officer at the Atlanta speech school. And she said, Hey, I really would like for you to consider this. And so I interviewed for a job at the rollin center for language and literacy here in Atlanta, and became a field implementation coordinator, which is a really big word for we're going to give you a computer and a dream, and we're going to figure out how to make this work, right? And so it was all about really transforming literacy instruction in a district. And so I was able to work with Marietta city schools and work with them to transform from really a balanced literacy school district into a district that was implementing structured literacy and the science of reading. And since then, their results have been phenomenal. They've they were able to really outperform the state by like, five times, and now the data keeps showing bigger and bigger numbers along the way, but it's it's really less about test scores to me, and more about I was able to be a part of transforming teachers lives. Teachers showed up and they were feeling successful again. I think that I was able through the work in partnership. I would never say this is something that I did on my own, because I don't believe that to be true at all. I think it was through really powerful partnership and through a lot of hard work that we were able to transform the lives of students. Because students who may have never had the chance to learn to read were now offered that because teachers had knowledge that then they were moving into practice, and the end result has been amazing. They're still on their journey. Do we have 95% of our kids at the district reading on grade level right now? The answer is no, but are we getting closer? The answer is yes. And one of the schools that I really worked with closely at the beginning, they were really a high performing school. About 70% of their kids were reading on grade level when we started. And people said, well, maybe this doesn't work for these kids. I don't know if you know anything about me, but I was like Game on. And thankfully, I was partnered with a principal that High five me and was like Game on. And I have to just give her a shout out. Dr Christina Wagner, today, she is leading a school that is number one in the state for third grade, number one in the state for third grade, that's west side Elementary in Marietta, and they have, I believe it's 96% of their kids in third grade reading on grade level. That's significant. I would say again, not all me. Thankfully, I was able to be a little agent of change there, but it wasn't all me, right? It was the power of a partnership, the power of moving knowledge into practice and really being able to see what happens when a school district supports this work. Really, from the district level, a principal owns the data and leads the work well every day, and that's one thing she does. She leads that work well every day in that building, along with other principals there in Marietta. And so it's just that's that's kind of been my story. And so where that all led me was I realized that I have a heart for I think I've always been like an entrepreneur at heart, and I love to start things and build things. And so throughout that process, I was a national letters trainer. I've done some consulting work with 95% group, and all of this kind of led to me beginning my own business, which is soar for more, sor for more. And really, that's what I do every day. And so I'm lucky to be able to be in about 12 school districts right now, working with their leadership to to support their success. And to really transform students lives, because at the end of the day, test scores are important to me, but that students have a life of voice and choice, that's really what's most important to me.

Stacy Hurst:
10:09

Yeah, and I have the same conversation with my pre service teachers about the test they have to pass to get their license. That is a milestone. That is not our goal. Our goal is what's beyond that?

Unknown:
10:21

Right checkpoint, right? It's like, are we doing it good? We're doing it, yep,

Stacy Hurst:
10:25

yeah, it's just an indicator, and only one. So yeah, I love so much about what you said. Resonated with what I know you do. And I don't know if you know, if we've talked about this, but did you know I used to live in Marietta on Whitlock Avenue,

Unknown:
10:44

one of our many hallway conversations. I think

Stacy Hurst:
10:48

Whitlock Avenue mayreta, I love it. And next week, we're actually interviewing Dr grant Rivera, who is the superintendent of the Marietta School District.

Unknown:
10:57

I really am a huge fan of him, because it requires district leadership from the very top, and he's, he's been all that and more in this work.

Stacy Hurst:
11:05

Well, that is what I was going to ask you. The next question is, then you have been in a lot of these spaces that have seen that change. What do you think actually moves the dial? You've mentioned many of them, but if you could just put a fine point on it for literacy in schools and in classrooms. What do you think moves the dial there?

Unknown:
11:24

So the thing that I will say is that there are a lot of different lovers, right? We can leverage many different systems, but without courageous leadership at the top, these initiatives fall flat, and we need people that are partnered up. We need superintendents that are courageous, that are partnering with their school board and that are partnering with people in the district office and people running our schools, leaders running our schools. But it takes courageous leadership, and I think that so often we are afraid of courage in our school systems. And I think why we're afraid of courage is actually sad, but I think we're so busy protecting faulty systems rather than protecting children who the system is failing, that we're scared if we're courageous and might undo something that we've previously said or done. And so I think it takes two things, right? It takes a humble leader, someone who can say, Yeah, we did that, and we're not doing that anymore. But then it also takes a courageous leader, someone who says, hey, when we know better, we do better, right? And I love the John Maxwell quote. I have it on my wall over here. It says, leaders know the way, go the way and show the way. We're asking teachers to do a lot, and we need if we're asking them to be courageous. They deserve leaders layers above them that are being courageous and that are paving the way for them to be successful every day. And so I will say that about grant at every step of the way. He has thought, how can I make the teachers on the ground floor be courageous or be more courageous? Because I've paved the way for them to do so. And so I think that I'm encouraged to me, I would say, I would say a good dose of humble pie, right? Like a good slice of humble pie serves us all well, and then also just being courageous and not being afraid to disrupt, like courageous, yet humble leader. That sounds like a good job description, right? Yeah, that's what we're looking for.

Donell Pons:
13:22

Justin, I like what you said about it's okay to have been wrong to move forward and be right, and that's something a lot of us are afraid to do, is to admit that in the past, we may have been wrong, but we need to be able to do that in order to be right moving forward.

Unknown:
13:36

Yeah, it's, I mean, and that's so hard from anyone that's in leadership. I was walking with a leader the other day, and we've been together now for about a year and a half, and things are getting like we're seeing a change in some practices. There are some places where we've really got to up our leadership game. And she, she and I were walking out together, and she said, I am just scared. And you know what my response to her was, do it scared. Do it scared, like we sometimes we have to just do it scared. And it's, it's oftentimes our ego, and I get it. No one likes to feel like, I told you one thing, I I sold you one thing, right? I told you this was the program that was going to do it. But sometimes we have to make critical changes, and sometimes we have to do it scared and really eat the humble pie in the process, because we can't, we don't have the privilege of waiting it out for the sake of our ego. Like that, to me, is a scary, scary place to be if we're if we're just like, Okay, we're just gonna not do that. We're gonna wait because it might impact what people think of me. Do you know who people trust? I'm going to trust a leader that can say I'm sorry, that can say I've done something wrong, and that can say but I am here to support this work all the way because teachers know. Teachers know if the curriculum is not working, teachers know if we're holding on to something longer than we should. And I actually. Actually think that we can build a lot of trust in our teams when we step forward and we do this scared thing or this scary thing, right? That we're that we're courageous,

Stacy Hurst:
15:10

yeah, you know, as you were talking you, I don't know if you noticed it, but you said there were some, there's some practices that we haven't quite seen change yet, and I as in that sentence, what would also make sense is we haven't quite seen the changes in the scores that we want to see yet, but you said practices. So talk to me about what changes, maybe a classroom level that you help teachers to realize and be brave enough to try, right? What changes are you working with teachers on this?

Unknown:
15:46

I mean, that's that's a loaded question. I think that one of the things that I'll say is that the first thing when we think about practices is it's really just starting with explicit instruction, and too often we're diving straight into just change the reading practices. And so that's been one of the things right, is really working on what is explicit structure instruction look like? How do we teach skills and concepts, right? Being really clear across the board, like, what are our routines for vocabulary instruction? What? What does it look like to increase opportunities to respond in classrooms. Because what I what I say often, is that the difference between a poor reader and a proficient reader is often the amount of practice they have. And how often do we, unintentionally but also regularly limit the amount of practice kids get because of our decisions as an educator, and I think we have to make really, really informed decisions around how we increase opportunities to respond, because that's just more practice for all kids. And so using choral response, increasing how we implement turn in talks, all kinds of ways to really get students actively involved. One of the things that I think I see in a lot of schools right now is very passive teaching and learning. And so it's passive. The pace is slow. And so really teaching teachers about a perky pace and how when we use strong routines that can be used across the day, right? Then we're able to pick up our pace. It's predictable. I'm a huge Anita Archer fan. You're probably picking up on that a little bit already, but I love that. She says predictability predicts ability. Yeah, that's true, right? Like, our kids are going to be able to be more successful when we stick with predictable routines. And so really just implementing routines that are predictable throughout the day, that's just kind of the baseline, right? It's like, what does this look like for good overall universal instruction? And there's so much more that I could go into there, but I think that's just something. And Lindsay, I see your I see your teacher self perking up right now. But I definitely think that too often we're diving straight into Can you teach phonemic awareness, or can you teach phonics well? Or can you help build fluency, when really we don't have just strong instruction in place, and so I'm spending a lot of time in schools right now working on just strong instruction. It's really been my experience that teachers want to do the right thing, but it's really hard to do something that you haven't seen. And in too many places, in too many schools, instruction is this isolated thing, right? We're not as collaborative as a professional as we want to be, I don't think I think we talk about it as a buzzword a lot, but teachers are still teaching and learning and doing in isolation a lot, and so we have to really show them what does instruction look like when we're moving away from just being a passive instructor or teacher And moving from passive learning to active learning. I oftentimes, Lindsay, I would love to hear your opinion on this, but I think that we have a lot of activity directors in classrooms. Okay, we're going to teach this today, and here's the six activities we're going to do with it, right? And instead of being activity driven, what would happen if we move to, like, active teaching and learning, and where there's so many at bats and opportunities to respond and opportunities for corrective feedback. And really that's what I'm seeing in schools, is that we have to build teaching stamina. So when I think about practices, it's going back to building teaching stamina too, because we all have lived in the land of 10 to 12 minute mini lessons. And Phew, now I can let go, and I can have bring a little small group over here with me, and they can go over there and work in independent stations. And like the 10 to 12 minutes, we were like, Let's pack that 10 to 12 minutes full with a punch. And boom. Now we release them to go struggle on their own. And y'all are laughing, because I think you you recognize like this is a. Reality in a lot of room. But how do we how do we help teachers build how do we support teachers, right? I don't think it's their fault. I think it's a faulty system, right? It's a system they've been taught

Stacy Hurst:
20:13

like, yes, well, I'm thinking, that's my current role, right? I'm upstream. I'm the one to give them the start. So even as you're talking, and we brought up Anita Archer, she said this at a higher ed summit right before the reading league conference that I've been thinking about ever since she said, kind of exactly what you said we should teach pre service teachers first how to teach and then teach them the content well, I don't know about the universities y'all went to, but at mine, it was kind of backwards. You didn't get that methods, part of it until the end you have had the content instruction, maybe a little bit about how to teach, like lesson planning and those kind of things, but not the real routines and practices that you're talking about. Justin so this is timely, because right now my students are starting their semester long tutoring of first graders, and I am tasked with this is our second literacy class so they have a foundational knowledge, but we're teaching them what a structured literacy lesson plan. We call it that, but it's really routines, right, that go into and it's not just teaching them the why and the how, but the what and the when. And it's a lot, but I think that's where it starts. So none of us that went to school for teaching, I wasn't even taught something as simple as reading doesn't happen naturally, right? So it's systemic. Starts from the pre service time for sure, right?

Unknown:
21:50

And I want to stamp the idea and Lindsay, I know, as you like, as a teacher, and I still feel very much like I'm a teacher, and I've had to undo so much and teach myself so much that I want to name, like, this is not a teacher problem. This is a systems problem, right? Like the idea and the way that things have been able to evolve over time is really that systems have allowed it, or systems have supported it, or systems have ignored it, right? Like, what happens when a system ignores something? And so Lindsay, I would love to hear kind of your thoughts on, like, what do you see and kind of, what has your experience been with all of this?

Lindsay Kemeny:
22:24

Yeah, well, Justin, you got me all excited talking about that. I love the idea of active teaching, right? And just like you, I'm a huge proponent of Dr Anita Archer, like she's just my hero, and I feel like she has truly changed the way I teach, and it's really bridging what I've learned from her with the science of reading. And that's like, what makes the secret sauce? And you were talking about this practice and how you know, really, that's the difference between a proficient reader and one maybe who's struggling is how much practice, and I think about that a lot in my teaching how much practice students are getting, and then just, I was coaching another teacher, and since then, I've just seen and heard this a lot of other times, like so I think it's really common. And I think it goes back to Justin what you're saying, where a lot of teachers, you know, one haven't been taught this, but also haven't been shown it. So they just haven't seen, you know, you know, like a strong phonics lesson, or whatever part of the day it is, but where you know this one teacher I was coaching, I would say, Well, who is doing the work? Who is doing the work? For example, during the dictation part of her phonics lesson, she was writing every single word, and so the kids were just really copying her. So I'm thinking, who's doing the work? The students, or you? And I think, you know, after talking to some teachers like I think this is really common where you think maybe we're almost over scaffolding in some ways, or we think, Well, I'm modeling, okay, well, model it once, pull it back and see what they can do, you know. And then I had just thinking about making, making the most of your time. I had teachers asking me, well, then after everyone has spelled the word, do you go up to the front and then write it under the document, camera or whatever, and I'm like, Well, no, because I've been walking around and I already can see everyone has it, correct. So if I already see that everyone has it, I've given feedback to the ones who didn't, you know, and I have, like, some of you know that I choose a student to go write it up while I'm going around to monitor right? So we can just move on, and that's important, because we need more practice opportunities. So anyways, I'm just thinking about that a lot. Who's doing the work and how much practice is everyone getting?

Unknown:
24:51

Yeah, and you just, I mean, going back to practices, the scaffolding is a huge piece, right? Like the use of gradual release, like all of these things have to be. Clearly taught I found myself, and I'm two years into my like being a consultant with my business and really working with schools, and I'm spending the majority of my time for the first year and a half in schools, really helping their leadership develop an understanding of the science of reading, but also helping leadership and teachers just understand good instruction, because that is really the foundation of all of this working. And I love that you were like, That's the secret sauce. I use that terminology all the time. It's the secret sauce. I think I have several secret sauces that I talk about, but that's one of them, right? It's got to be like the science of reading with the science of learning and instruction, right? It's those things together, and

Lindsay Kemeny:
25:41

it really, it's, there's a science to it, but it's also an art, and I think that's really neat, and why I love teaching, and it will develop, and you will get better. And really, you know, it's, I just love that challenge of really, really keening into what, like the what the students need, and who needs more and who needs less, and just being really flexible with that, but it's an art.

Stacy Hurst:
26:04

You're just honing your craft, which is artful.

Lindsay Kemeny:
26:07

Honing is the better word, I don't know.

Stacy Hurst:
26:09

Oh, that's good. Well, we'll explain.

Narrator:
26:12

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Donell Pons:
26:52

So Justin, you brought up some interesting things, and just listening to you, Lindsay talking about here I am coaching a teacher. I'm working with a colleague. Wow, groundbreaking. Let's just isn't that awesome, right to be given those opportunities? So Justin, you talked a little bit about having the humility that I could hear some things that you were keying into that made a site prepared to do these things, to do the heavy lifting. So that humility key piece I'm looking at Lindsay and thinking opportunities for coaching and working with other teachers. Justin in your experience, what are some of the things that schools can do, sites can do in order to make their place more conducive to change, to make it work?

Unknown:
27:34

Yeah, there's a lot, but I think the very first thing is to just have an honest conversation around where we are Data Wise, I think the data tells a story. I think that's part of it. But the other thing is to get this kind of all in, all the time, all of us, mentality that there's no more. These are your kids. These are my kids, right? Intervention, those kids that may be struggling, those are yours, right? No, they're all our kids, and we have to be working in a systematic way to support them. So I think, like, that's one thing, is that is that shift, this is not going to be popular, and I'm gonna go and say this, but I think we're over, PD, ing, our teachers to the point that we are knowledge bombing them. And what I happened is, what I see kind of everywhere, is that they've received so much. PD, whether it's asynchronous, whether it's a day here, a day there, but they're not actually able to move it into action or practice. Why? Because it's just it's just words, and it's just words and it's just words and it's ideas and ideas, and so I think one of the things that I'm working with on a lot of schools I'm working with right now is developing PD in such a way that it is bite size and actionable, and really where they're able to learn something and then do something right like, how do we help them get closer to The end goal by learning a little, doing a little, learning a little doing a little, versus learn a lot, forget a lot, right? Like, I think that's where we're living is we learn a lot, we forget a lot, and in the end, we're not getting any closer to the finish line.

Stacy Hurst:
29:16

Having, yeah, sorry, even having time to process that I remember so many PDS, and, you know, in the spirit of being vulnerable, I probably organized some of these very situations. But as a first grade teacher, I remember thinking, this is fantastic. It's February 2, and I need time to, like, think about this and think about how I'm going to play it. I have to teach tomorrow so I don't have time, and then you move on, and then you never come back, and without the support or follow up, you know, how can I support you in implementing this change? I love the idea of Bite Size. That's so important.

Unknown:
29:53

And then what does it look like? What does this support look like after the Bite Size training is given? And I'm actually a. Huge fan recently of this idea of like, what could a 10 Minute PD, look like with teachers friends? Here's the one thing I want to show you today. Now go back and practice it. I'll be in your classrooms this week to help you support it. Right? Because I think that too often what we do is we overload them with this laundry list of things to do. We don't even connect it to the curriculum that we're using. So I think we have to make really clear connections to how does this fit in our context and with the resources that we're using right they need to see that connection, and then they need support with making that happen in their classroom. And so I and really district leadership have been leaning into real time coaching, and we do it for a few reasons. One, no one and I could be wrong. I'm humble enough to say I'm wrong, but my experience in schools has been that time is finite for everybody, for teachers, for coaches, for admin, for everybody. And so how do we make sure that we can actually give teachers what they need and support them along the way. And real time coaching does that. It allows me to see a model in real time. It allows me to try something in my room with support, and it allows me to realize that my administrator isn't just in here to evaluate me, but they actually want to see me and my kids be successful in real time. That's huge. Nothing sucks more than an administrator walking in or a group of people. Even worse, right? Lindsay is probably like, Yep, and I can, I can nod to this with their clipboards making notes on you and then walking out, and then you're like, what did they just think? Right? And so that's not helpful in the moment, and now we have to have a meeting to talk about what you just thought. So then my my time as an administrator is out the window. You're taking time from a teacher. And so there's just so much benefit to the culture that it creates when, hey, I'm a knowledgeable leader, and I know enough to support you in this work, and I'm committed to not just evaluating you, because that's a small part of my job. The big part of my job is supporting you so that you're successful and our kids are successful, and we can to that. So real time coaching. To me, you ask, like, what does it take? I think real time coaching. But what does real time coaching take leaders that are knowledgeable, and not just leaders that have knowledge, not just leaders have been knowledge bomb, because bond, because they've taken a course, but leaders that actually are able to really that they've acquired this knowledge, right? They've acquired the knowledge. They can articulate the knowledge, and then they can actualize it by translating that knowledge into practice for teachers, that's really, really important. And I use those three words with leaders a lot like, Okay, how are we helping people acquire knowledge? How are we making sure they can articulate what we want them to know? And then, how are we helping them actualize it? That, to me, is huge.

Lindsay Kemeny:
33:00

Give us, give us good feedback, give us constructive kind feedback. When you come and observe. I mean, I think that, I just think there's so much potential there for coaching. Sometimes, you know, it is more just like evaluating than making it a learning opportunity. And sometimes maybe you just don't get that feedback that we as teachers, I think we want, we appreciate and we crave. And then I would just say to teachers who don't have that, you don't have coaches, or you don't have anyone to give feedback to, you know, to come and observe. I have found it's really eye opening to record yourself, set up a camera and record a lesson. And you know, you, you know, I've, I've gone back to watch them before, and like, gosh, I thought I explained that so clearly, but nope. And then, oh my gosh, I had no idea those students were doing that, you know, or whatever. And it really helps you improve your craft.

Unknown:
34:01

Or what you really said, Lindsay, is, I had no idea my kids were so engaged and so, well, I agree with you. Y'all these five and 10 minute walk throughs that you're doing once a month in classrooms. You're not seeing the big picture. And so we sit in rooms and watch 30 minute lessons together and wow, like the things that it reveals. It's almost heartbreaking sometimes, but you know what else it does is it lets teachers who are shining all the time. It lets administrators and school district leaders see every bit of their shine. And it's the most amazing thing to be like that teacher. Look what she did for the entire 30 minutes, right? And then it gives us some some evidence, and some way to say, hey, we need to show this to other teachers. So then it's shareable, right? Like that really helps us move practices to scale, when we can show you what it looks like. And so what I think, and I think when you, when you start doing that, it creates a level of vulnerability. Right? Like, oh, my district is asking me to, like, turn in a video of me, but we have to have the culture of support. Yeah, we're, we're actually doing this not to evaluate you, but to support leadership and knowing what to look for and how to support you, yeah? Like, that's the piece, right? I think too often we have leadership who can sometimes lack the knowledge to offer really constructive feedback. Lindsay, you just named it right. Like, tell me, give me something really juicy to chew on and something that's going to be impactful. Yeah, don't tell me, nine out of 18 of my kids were doing the work, yeah, okay. Like, help me figure out how to get the other nine to do the work and to see success. And I'm working with the district, and I love this. We had a big conversation around moving from being evaluative to supportive, because that culture shift is critical to making this work work, and that's really important to really getting an entire staff to move with you in one direction where, yes, we have to evaluate, we know the state demands us to evaluate teachers, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? We've all been evaluated for years. We've all survived it, okay, but what would happen if we were supported in an intense way? That's when we're going to see the difference. And so they've created these little post it notes in classrooms, and there's three words on the bottom. One is sustain. Wow, you're doing something. We want to sustain, and we want to keep on seeing. The next word is spread. Oh, my goodness, that thing, right? There is something that we want to spread throughout our school, our district and our state, whatever, right? So, sustain, spread. And then the last one is solve. Hey, here's something I noticed in your classroom. Let's work together to solve this that feels so much better than Hey, you got a one on this. Come see me in my office, right? Like, wait, my administrator and my coach want to help me solve a problem. I'm down to solve a problem any day of the week, right? But what I don't want is negative feedback that no one's going to help me solve. And so I think that's the reality in a lot of schools. Yep, so the people that are on the ground doing the work our teachers are the people on the ground closest to the work. And what would it look like if they knew that they had a team of people behind them, not to evaluate them, but to support them and naming hey, here's things we want us to sustain. Here are things that we want to spread, and here are things that we want to solve that would feel pretty

Stacy Hurst:
37:23

sometimes they feel that evaluative nature of it when leaders come in and say that only nine of your kids were on task or whatever. But to be honest, maybe those administrators don't know how to help support right? So I'm hearing so much of what you're saying Justin is the culture. We have to make changes there, so it's safe to take risks, so it's okay to feel supported and try something new. And part of that is when we're talking about knowledge building, that is not just on the teachers. So leadership needs to be in those situations where teachers are learning and maybe going through letters themselves or something like that. Do you have any advice or examples in that regard?

Unknown:
38:12

Yeah, I mean examples. I'm I'm just thinking of leaders that I know so dr, Christina Wagner, like I said earlier, every time I walked into her office, had a book stack, and she was just continuously building her own knowledge. We can't lead what we haven't learned. There's way too much to learn in this work. But I would say, connect with a community of leaders. I say, often in my business, I'm like, people often ask me, like, what do you do? And so I say, I consult organizations, I coach educators and leaders and I connect change makers to community. I'm going to connect this Assistant Superintendent over here to another assistant superintendent. Why? Because they don't need to take another course together. They need to be able to hop on the phone and talk to each other with common language and a common understanding to solve problems. Right? I think there's, there's this, this kind of, this need for this community of, how do we connect? And so one of the things that I'm starting, and I'm really excited about this, is I've been working with a group this year, kind of massaging this, but this cohort of leaders called show me how to soar for next year, right? And we're going to probably start late spring, but like, show me how to soar. And like, what does this look like from the leadership perspective at the district level and then at the school level, but then pairing people up in like Job, like roles, and giving them a community where they can ask questions and where we can be connected in a really regular cadence, because no one should have to solve problems in silos. We know too much. We know too much. And that's really been the best thing being in all these different schools and these districts is like, Y'all, we all have the same problems. I might see things over there that, wow, that's something I want to spread across all of my schools, right? Which is really the the power of this cohort is like, I'm seeing it in one place. Everybody needs to know about this, right? Here's a problem over here to solve. How do we solve these? But I think there's really no safe space for leaders to be like, hey, I need help here, and I'm struggling because the same way, teachers are afraid of being evaluated, guess what? Leaders are afraid of being evaluated, too, and no one wants to no one wants it to be said that, like, oh, they didn't know blank. So I think there's, like, there's we've got to intentionally create safe spaces where leaders don't have to solve problems in silos. And so that's something I'm really passionate about, and I'm looking forward to really creating that cohort in the future, because we have so much we can learn from each other, and not just me sharing information with other people. But I learned from the school leaders I'm with every day, like, there's amazing work happening in every single school, but we need to be able to tap into it and to really spread and share that so that other people can do this work in a sustainable way that creates impact. That's long term.

Stacy Hurst:
40:59

Yeah, and I can see that you keep saying like it starts at the top, if you had a district leader, we superintendent, then you know that you're going to be supportive. They understand all of this, and they're in the same spot, and they're willing to be vulnerable and supportive. Then it really does help all the building leaders, everybody down to feel that sense of security and really, probably motivation to be honest, right?

Unknown:
41:29

Yeah, this work does not live at one level. And I tell people that all the time, I think too often, we say, just change the classroom practice. This work does not live at one level. It has to really live on all the levels, from the top down and the bottom up right. And I think that's really when we have them pressing at both sides. That's when we squeeze out excellent results. And so I'm excited to see, really, there's districts that are working really hard. I'm excited to see what's what's ahead for them.

Stacy Hurst:
41:55

Yeah, I love this I love this conversation, and that we've been talking so much about the environment, honestly, I that was a little bit of an unexpected turn some of my questions,

Unknown:
42:07

yeah, yeah, of course. So I want to clarify. I think you named earlier, like, culture matters. Yeah, culture does matter. But we build a culture through changing instruction, and I think too often we are trying to build culture by having the coke cart and a bag of chips. This is not doing it. Stop doing that on Friday. You know what changes a culture winning, when we begin to win and when we see everybody as an important part of winning together, that changes culture. And really, that's what we saw in Marietta, and what I'm seeing in other schools is schools that focus on changing instruction and creating systems that really support teachers and students. You begin to see that, hey, we're winning. And you know what changes? Morale changes when we're winning. It sucks all the time. Have y'all do? Y'all like showing up to work every day and feeling like you're losing No Nobody, and so we have to make sure that we're changing the instruction, because that's really what we're in the business of. We're in the business of teaching and learning. So it doesn't make any sense to try to change the culture any other way.

Stacy Hurst:
43:12

You know, one of my undergrad degrees is in sociology, and you just described what how we talk about culture perfectly. It's not something that can be imposed. It's not and it's those very things. Culture is a little bit organic. It grows out of the very things you're talking about. So that's so great.

Unknown:
43:32

It has to be authentic, right? And I think that's the thing we try. We try to do all these Band Aid things, because we know that we're it really comes from that, like we know we're operating in a broken system. And I think people think people are doing it out of their best heart, because people feel what that feels like to work in a broken system. And so the best way to fix that culture is to fix the system right and system of instruction, fix the system of leadership, fix the system. Of all of those systems have to be fixed.

Stacy Hurst:
44:04

And really just an example that I've been thinking of as you've been talking like I have questions when I was a literacy coach, and I've already admitted I was not a good one. I did my best, but I was not the best one. Well, thank you for making me feel better. But I was thinking about, you see teachers doing practices for me, it was round robin when I saw them doing that my because I know so much like I think, oh my gosh, they got to stop doing that. But really, with what you're talking about, with the environment that takes that pressure off of me, and if we're being supportive and even predictive and talking about routines, that teacher is more likely to notice that themselves right and then lean on the support system to make the change. So I think, in a sense, that would make everything a little bit more, I don't know, just strong. Longer to address, yeah, and and more authentic.

Unknown:
45:05

And I think people would feel more comfortable taking risk, right, like supportive environment, because we do need people to live in the in the zone of risk taking. What we don't need is for you to sit back and clam up like it's not the moment when we want to change trajectories.

Stacy Hurst:
45:23

Yeah, like I'm going to do 10 Minute, PA, no letters only because I can't change I don't have time. I don't feel safe to do that, right? I don't

Unknown:
45:34

feel supported. What if we just tried this and I'm going to come in your classroom tomorrow and work with you to see what this looks like.

Stacy Hurst:
45:40

Justin, you just demonstrated why you're so good at your job. That's exciting.

Unknown:
45:44

Do you know? I don't often, and I was joking with Kristin when not long at a conference, of course, when we were talking, I don't see myself as an expert, and I think it's really important for us to be humble enough like what I view myself as is a laborer that is doing this work every day, and is learning along the way, and I think that's what we're all doing. And so I think more than anything, I want to be a partner with other people in this work, and that's that's hopefully, what makes me a change maker, and what makes me impactful is that people view me as supportive and a partner, but also one that's always growing, like my nose is to the ground, trying to figure out what's working, following the research and making sure that we're really spreading those best practices.

Stacy Hurst:
46:30

Yeah, which is fantastic, but on the level you're on too. Like when I think of an expert, they have a very narrow focus. Like you might be an expert in one thing because you've spent all your time dedicated to that one thing. Literacy is many things. And when we're talking about implementation, that is not necessarily one thing. So you are in that dynamic middle where there are so many you said you use the words the word lever. That's a perfect word. So many levers in that situation, and every setting is unique. And what I'm hearing from you is that you also honor that you're not gonna say, you know, just because it works in this situation, this is how everyone should do it.

Unknown:
47:16

You know that that's a really important thing to name. Is that when we did the work in Marietta, we actually tried to apply kind of that exact same thing to other other projects. And what I will say is that there has not been one project I've worked on across multiple districts that it looked the same. But what I have learned is that when energy and intention and really what you give your energy to is what, what's going to what's going to work right? Like, so if we're changing the curriculum, like, let's focus on that. Or if we're training leaders and teachers, let's focus on that by building knowledge. Like in Marietta, we really started with strong leadership, or strong leadership knowledge building, and then followed it with teacher knowledge building. We did not change. This is important to know. We did not change curriculum, I think, until the beginning of the fourth year, and we saw massive results at the end of the second year. That's great. I think that's that's crazy for people to understand, but that was because the lover was focused on really helping teachers be responsive, because they had strong knowledge, right? Like knowledge is important to practice, but knowledge alone will not do the thing right. Knowledge has to be followed up with practice, because knowledge is what teachers know. Practice is what teachers do, and what really moves the needle is the doing.

Stacy Hurst:
48:35

You know, like the simple view of reading, they're not exclusive those two things, knowledge and practice. But you can't have the good outcomes you need without both of them. Not at all. Yeah, that was

Unknown:
48:47

so that was Marietta story. Is that another district I was working with, it just saw double digit gains in New York. They and this was after the end of one year. It was about 20% across the district. They changed curriculum, and we supported the curriculum, curriculum implementation. So when we supported the curriculum implementation, we saw about a 20% increase across the district. But those are different levers, right?

Stacy Hurst:
49:09

And different from what we hear. How many of us, every time they adopt a new curriculum, say, you'll this will take three to five years to see its impact. But I think that's focusing on the actual curriculum, not the levers that you've been talking about with teachers and and practices and support.

Unknown:
49:28

Yeah, Dr Stephanie Stoller, I think, said this so clearly the other day, she was like, leader or implementation moves at the speed of leadership. And there is no truer word, whether it's from an AP, a principal, a coach, a teacher, everyone is a leader in this work, right? The district superintendent. When all that leadership is moving in the same direction together, it increases the speed, which minimizes the amount of time that we're going to see that we're going to need to see change. And so I really do think like that was, that was pretty eye opening. And I love that, that quote, that implementation moves at the speed of leadership.

Stacy Hurst:
50:07

Yeah, that's really awesome. And I I've noticed too, as we've been talking like Lindsay will say that in her training, she'll say, this is in her book, this is what works for me. You have your own unique situation, you know, but you can still see those through lines that you've been talking about too Justin, and I know Lindsay has been great to share, and I think that's another important thing. When you do find something that works, that aligns with what you know, right, and a new way to implement it, or even, like a better way to combine the two, then it is we learn by sharing.

Unknown:
50:42

So that is great. I appreciate you having me on and getting to talk implementation with you all. It's always fun to spend time outside of a 10 minute conversation in a hallway at a conference.

Stacy Hurst:
50:53

Yes, Justin, I'm joking with you, but not really, because people love Justin when they see him at a conference down the hallway, their faces light up. And I was joking with Justin at the last conference we were at with this because I was standing near some teachers who did just that, and one of them said, That's Justin browning. I love him. I turned to them like I know him, leveraging his fame to make myself feel important, like I know him, it was really

Unknown:
51:25

there's no way I would consider myself remotely famous, but I am thankful to have an impact on this work.

Stacy Hurst:
51:33

Yeah, well, you're you don't care about fame. You care about the outcomes for kids. Brings away too much

Unknown:
51:40

responsibility changing literacy is enough for me.

Stacy Hurst:
51:43

Okay, some would say it's even more well. Thank you so much for joining us. Justin, and people who want to know more about what you do can visit your website. Soar for more, right? Sor for more.

Unknown:
51:59

WW, dot, s o r, F, O, R, M, O, R, e.com, it sounds like a jingle, right? Soar for more.com and or can email me at Justin at SOAR for more.com and I'd be happy to connect awesome.

Stacy Hurst:
52:12

And thanks to all our listeners for joining us, and we hope you'll join us for the next episode of literacy talks.

Narrator:
52:22

Thanks. For joining us today. Literacy talks comes to you from Reading Horizons, where literacy momentum begins. Visit reading horizons.com/literacy. Talks to access episodes and resources to support your journey in the science of reading. Reading.