Episode 110: From Conversation to Collective Impact: Creating Change in Literacy

Narrator:
0:03

Welcome to Literacy Talks, the podcast for literacy leaders and champions everywhere, brought to you by Reading Horizons. Literacy Talks is the place to discover new ideas, trends, insights and practical strategies for helping all learners reach reading proficiency. Our hosts are Stacy Hurst, a professor at Southern Utah University and Chief Academic Advisor for Reading Horizons. Donell Pons, a recognized expert and advocate in literacy, dyslexia and special education, and Lindsay Kemeny, an elementary classroom teacher, author and speaker. Now let's talk literacy.

Donell Pons:
0:46

Welcome back, everybody. Happy 2026 this is Donell Pons, and I am joined by, as always, my co hosts, Stacy Hurst and Lindsay Kemeny. We're just going to dive right into our topic this year. It's 2026 why not? We'll be diving into the world of education and its innovation and explaining or exploring the topic of change makers in the teaching of reading. We thought this was a really relevant time to do that. We've talked about a lot of really great things on the podcast, and it really seemed like it was about time that we focused in on those people and institutions that are working to make change in reading, because there's a lot going on, and it'll give us a chance to kind of highlight some different things. And so we're going to be looking at individuals and collectives and different approaches. And so it ought to be really interesting conversations. And I'll be referencing in this particular episode two inspirational books. And I think Stacy, you were you kind of recommended. Hey, I know you've been reading these books. It's been kind of interesting. Why don't you bring them in? And it's two books that are about this sort of movement of collective change. How do you get it moving? Because I kind of feel like that's where we're sitting. We've discussed some really great topics. We know some really good things. Lots of people have had some terrific education conferences are great. It's that implementation. It's that taking it that next step. It's it's, how do we get things moving? And all of us are facing different challenges depending on where we're working, who we're working with, and so it might be, it's kind of an interesting way to explore all of that and how we keep moving this along. So I'll be referencing these two books if anybody's interested in looking at them. One is called frontiers in social innovation, and the other one is called the journey of collective impact. And they're both really good. They approach things from different perspectives about how you get together folks of like mind and get them moving in the right direction, and might highlight some of the systemic problems where we need collaboration that might come up. But first, let's set the stage with this challenge. So we've talked a lot about literacy rates, and this, I think, is going to be an interesting way to really start this conversation off. I'm anxious to hear you two chat with me about this. So we talk a lot about literacy rates the United States, and it's been a very hot topic, and it's often tied to data from the National Assessment of Educational Progress or NAEP. I know many of you familiar with the statistics. You probably heard the stat 1/3 of fourth graders read below grade level. But let's unpack that, because it's more nuanced than it sounds, and we even heard it again. I heard people talking about Mississippi and the miracle. But NAEP isn't a direct measure of Grade Level Reading as we think about it, like state tests or classroom benchmarks. It's a national assessment that evaluates comprehension skills using grade appropriate texts with four levels below basic, basic proficient and advanced. So right below basic means students show limited, partial mastery of foundational skills for their grade, like struggling to identify main ideas or make simple inferences. In the 2024 NAEP, the most recent full reading assessment, about 40% of fourth graders scored below basic, up from previous years, especially post pandemic, but still not so great, and that leaves around 60% at basic. So here's the key distinction. Napes, proficient is an aspirational high bar aimed at college and career readiness. It's not the same as meeting grade level expectations on state standards. In fact, that basic often aligns more closely with what states call proficient. So let's unpack that a little bit. How is that data possibly a little misleading, and how does understanding it maybe even help the conversation more. What do you think, Stacy, you've had this I'm going to let you lead out because you've talked about this before.

Stacy Hurst:
4:26

I have spent a lot of time thinking about this as well, so I appreciate the opportunity to revisit it. But one thing that I have taken a deep dive into the nape in the past, not to say it's all front of mind, but one thing I remember taking away is that trends are trends. Trajectories are trajectories. And honestly, we did dip because of covid a bit, but even now our scores are we were already on a downward trajectory. And I regardless of what the test is or. What it measures that data for decades has said the same thing, and I think that's what we should be like, really tuning into and then considering the fact that you called out it is a comprehension test. So that tells us a lot about what it could what could be the issue, right, starting with even oral language comprehension, but that doesn't that's not specifically measured on a test like the nape,

Donell Pons:
5:30

right? Lindsay, how about you? Any thoughts?

Lindsay Kemeny:
5:32

Yeah, it's just interesting. Well, you know, I was first thinking, Gosh, I would love, like, I haven't seen, ever seen the actual assessment. I would love to kind of look at it and see what that looks like and what the questions are like in the passages. But then, to Stacy's point, I mean, it's been the same. So no matter what it looks like, it's not good that we're on a downward trajectory there. And yeah, it's interesting, because why are the scores? You know, we all know, especially, I think, you know, all our listeners kind of know you have a comprehension problem. But what is actually the problem? There could be a lot of different things affecting those scores. So that's kind of interesting to me, if, like, I wish we could kind of dive more into that to see, you know what the weaknesses are there. It's probably all over the board, though.

Donell Pons:
6:27

What's interesting to me, too, I think you've both touched on might this also mean that changing that data might be a lot harder than any of us thinks, particularly if you've simplified it and oversimplified it to think of it as a benchmark of some kind that's an equivalency of grade level, then you really it could be a much harder than any of us have anticipated moving that dial,

Lindsay Kemeny:
6:49

yeah, because what were you saying? Donell, so, like, if we use, for example, we use a cadence in my school district and in my state. So if they are, you know, meeting grade level expectations there, that still wouldn't be, that still wouldn't be the highest bar, right? That's what you're not necessarily nape. It might just be basic.

Donell Pons:
7:13

Might just be, depending on what the student can do with that, right?

Lindsay Kemeny:
7:16

Yeah, yeah, that's true. What can they do with it?

Stacy Hurst:
7:19

And compare the comprehension part of a cadence, it's a small ish part, like if you consider giving the test when the whole focus of nape is that so, yeah, maybe apples and oranges on some levels, right?

Donell Pons:
7:35

Yes, yeah, it bears. It's worth having conversation, and it's worth keeping front of mind when we're having these conversations, I think. But usually it gets reduced down to kind of a number that I'm not so sure we understand as well as we should when we're having these conversations.

Stacy Hurst:
7:52

Yeah, Donell, you brought up the Mississippi miracle, and I know that they are like to the point of the topic today change making they are making systemic changes, and I think we can see that we can have one teacher doing a stellar job in their class, and that doesn't mean those students are going to be any more supported when they move to the next level if they don't have systemic support. And teachers need that support too, right? But also, keeping in mind, they did move the dial on the nape scores Mississippi did, which is why we're talking about them. But if you consider where they started, they had a long they had that they were below, they were the lowest, like they were so low, and they did move the scores, but they're still not at the top right, so they're kind of getting closer to the average or and I haven't looked at Mississippi scores specifically for a while, but I think that's something to keep in mind, because when the narrative becomes Yes, they are making change, and there is evidence of it. What is the other evidence? I don't hear other things being brought up when we talk about Mississippi. And to your point, it's hard to move that nape dial. So there is something there for sure. But does that mean that you can plug and play that in another state with a different population? Or, you know, there's so much that goes into making change to analyze.

Donell Pons:
9:22

Gosh, it's got me thinking about a lot of things. And to your point, Stacy, about systemic and that grade to grade support. So was it enough to have had a teacher that really understood what they were doing in fifth grade? But maybe your fourth wasn't so great. Your sixth wasn't so great. How's that going to appear on any data? I don't know, right? These are really good questions about the systemic support anyway. This is excellent. We're off already to a very good conversation, I think, particularly when we're talking about change makers, because that's the whole point that we talking about in literacy and in reading, is making change for better, right? Help. Students to become better readers quicker be able to do more with it. So this will be really interesting. So I'm interested in your thoughts too, on speaking of innovators, so I'm excited that we've had opportunities in the past to chat with folks who are making a real difference in their spaces. I can think of a few conversations that we had in the past. So I'm still thinking about the one with VIV from Project read AI. Gosh, that was a great conversation. I know from from data and statistics that a lot of listeners tuned into. That one really resonated with them. So that brings up the topic of AI or tech. What are your thoughts about that in this change maker space? Because one of the things that comes out of both of the innovation books that I talked about, they talked about. They talked about really making tech work for your organizations. And tech is huge in education right now. What role do you see 2026 coming with groups like, say, a project read AI, groups that are tech heavy and offering tech supports. What do you think? Lindsay, maybe I'll let you start out there. What do you think about that

Lindsay Kemeny:
10:59

tech I don't know this is a little hard for me, because I think I am a little more resistant to, like, AI and technology, and maybe that's because I'm in the lower grades, you know, I can see, and I love, I love having VIV on, and I love what he's doing, so not like, I think, oh my Gosh, that's so valuable. And we always need new texts. And it was like, that's such a valuable tool to have aI writing text for you at the same time. Especially maybe, since I am an author, there's something to be said about humans writing things, and the human aspect and the element of writing different stories and different things. And sometimes I joke with people where, you know, I as teachers, we really want to use AI in our in our classrooms and to make things easier. But sometimes I'm like, gosh, pretty soon, like thinking of upper grades especially, AI is going to be grading papers that AI wrote, you know, because the students are using it, and then the teachers are using it, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, where's that personal human touch to things? So sometimes I feel like I'm a little resistant, or more, maybe more cautious, and I'm trying to, I guess, internally, work it out in my mind, how it can help. And now, as a lower grade teacher, I do not see AI replacing, or technology replacing or being better than direct instruction from a teacher, and that that might be, really where that comes in a lot, because I think no matter what, no matter how good your technology is, an informative teacher who's responsive to her or his students is the best thing for students. That being said, there are times right when you're working with small group and what are the other kids doing? And technology definitely could have a place there, as long as it's not like a lot of times. I think it can be frustrating. You know, I've, I've heard of different programs and apps that teachers have used that are supposed to listen to a child and give them feedback or whatever, and it seems like there's still kinks to work out there, like it doesn't pick up on what they're saying, especially lower grades when there's articulation or other things. So I don't know, I'm just kind of rambling here, but those are some of my initial thoughts on it. Donell probably not the best one to talk about this topic because of my thoughts, my feelings.

Stacy Hurst:
13:41

And what about you, Stacy? Oh, I'm like, Lindsay, I've so many thoughts. In fact, I was I had a lot of thoughts when you asked the question, and then I had a lot of thoughts. And Lindsay was talking about what she was saying too. And I do think that, like back to the nape data, actually, we took a downward turn in 2011 and many people have made the point what was happening with technology about then, that's about the time iPhones became ubiquitous. We had more access to tech. And I think that that is change. When we talk about change, making it can be for better or for worse, right? And something that happens so quickly as technology in the scheme of like our everyday lives, do we? Did we have time to think about it judiciously and how to use it? And I think Lindsay, like you're saying, I'm all for it, if we can do it in a way that will effectively make a teacher's job easier, but the teacher is still the the sieve, the thing it runs through, right? And I have, I was also laughing when you were saying, like, AI is going to be checking AI. Two things happen. I know, because I think I've done that. I have done that as a college professor, use AI to check something that you. A student wrote using AI, and I will say, at the beginning of this semester, I actually nixed one of my essay assignments because I thought, you know, they're just going to use AI, and I can't, I don't know how to gatekeep that in a way that they will get original thought and their own language, right. So I think that tech can be a support or a hindrance when we're talking about that. And so when we I think just thinking about that is important and being very intentional, how, how does that? How does a tool like aI affect the system that we're that's where I think we need strong systems. So when we're saying we need change makers. We need to change the system first, and then we can make those decisions a lot easier. How to use this. And you know, I love that we are. Some people like Hugh Katz have mentioned they've brought he's brought to our attention many times. Let's not use it to outsource thinking, because I bet the nape scores are going to continue to dive if we're using AI for that.

Donell Pons:
16:05

So it's interesting, because I think VIV said something that I've heard people who tech is their thing say some really interesting things. And one thing that I really latched on to, that he said, was AI is a sparring partner. So that AI is resistance tension that takes you to the next level. Use it as a thought partner. I thought that was interesting, and I don't see us really talking intentionally about that, but we should be. The other thing that VIV said was value add. What's the value add for this piece of tech? Not just because the tech is cool, not just because the tech is fancy, not just because somebody says, Oh, let's go ahead and try this, but because somebody said, what's the value add and what's the value add for and in this case, it would be students, teachers. So it could have a different value add. But those need to be thought through. What is the value add for those individuals? And the student is always first. In my opinion, humble opinion, the student is always first. So I thought those were really interesting points that he brought up about tech. And I would put those to AI as well. And I use AI a lot with my students, particularly with students who have dyslexia. It can be a lifesaver, but it's how it's being presented and how it's being supported with the student that's everything. And I've seen it for good, really good, and it advances students work and thoughts, and they feel so supported. And then I've seen it also just take over and and absolutely do all the work for the student. And even the student feels a loss, which is interesting. Students who really care, and most of them do. I rarely have a student who doesn't really care and really want to know how to do something. They feel a loss, if that's how it was introduced and how it was used. Interesting. Okay, so this gets me thinking about the next thing on the collective side of trying to get work done, work at scale like this, the journey of collective impact is spot on. In the book, it says change at scale needs shared agendas and collaboration. And over 40 states have enacted science of reading law since 2019 like Mississippi's model you've mentioned, Stacy has teacher training, evidence based curricula, coaching, which did elevate Mississippi's NAEP scores we talked about. But this is not without hurdles. How do tools say, like things that they've talked about with being able to listen to students reading that sort of a thing. How do those complement? Or how can they complement big policy shifts? How do we see them working together? What do you think? Anybody have any thoughts? What do you think Stacy?

Stacy Hurst:
18:30

Well, as you were talking about that, I went back to what Reid Lyon has said. He said it in the symposium, the higher ed symposium we had the day before the reading league conference, and I think he's publishing work like I've seen it since then out there. He said, If we could go back in time, he would make sure we had a shared language, and there is a connection. Because these like VIV also pointed out, these are large, large language models, but they literally are statistical models, right? They are making connections in that way. I am thinking also about what Lindsay said when we're talking about systems change. How, if a student is reading to some AI and AI is responding they're not, AI cannot, not not capable, at this point, of noticing when a student takes their eyes off the text, when a student yawns, when a suit, you know you're getting these non verbal cues from a student. And I think if we're talking about this and systems, it needs to be a common language. Like the prompts we put in are only as good as what you know, right? So my students, who may may not have been paying attention in class, I'll just say that to do an assignment, they could say, you know, tell me how what's the best way to address a struggling reader? This has happened before, by the way, and I. Knew for sure it was aI because this particular student left the prompt in the paper, so I didn't even have to guess the prompt was there, but the answer had everything to do with three cuing and guided reading, and not you. But that student didn't know enough to say, Oh, this isn't correct, or maybe she just didn't read it before she submitted it. But I think those kind of things can impact the system if we're not having a shared language around those tools that shift into the larger, like, like, you just read that quote, the larger, yeah, what's the word I want? Like, vision, I guess, shared vision. So it's got so you've

Donell Pons:
20:36

got me thinking about something. And Lindsay, I'd like you to weigh on in too, because I think at some points in the past, you've mentioned this. So might tech be a way of maybe doing some of that heavy lifting in an initial initiative when, when we do have thin boots on the ground, so to speak, people are in the midst of getting the background and the education. Could tech be utilized to make it more equitable, maybe spread. I don't know. What do you think? Lindsay, what's Do you have

Lindsay Kemeny:
21:04

any thoughts on that? My answer, Donell, is, I don't know. I'm not sure. Yeah, thinking I love, I love, like, what Stacy said, bringing up what Reed Lyon had mentioned about how we don't have the shared language. And I think that's so huge. And Donell, you're saying 40, like, over 40 states have enacted these science of reading laws, and we're talking about system change. And you think over 40 states, that's a lot, but I feel like in a lot of ways, it's a little superficial, and it's not filtrating down through everybody. They don't understand the reasons. There might be, like, some that, well, there, for sure, would be a lot of resistance, not full understanding why we have these laws. And so, you know, they're saying one thing, but maybe doing another, or their program still, you know, are steeped in three cueing and other things, but, but teachers don't realize it, because, you know, maybe they haven't, you know, been taught all of that. So I don't know. So could somehow technology help? I don't know the shared like filtrate through everything and get the shared language and this knowledge. And how do we make change? And I don't know. Donell, I

Stacy Hurst:
22:12

don't know. Do you know I'm thinking very practically at this point? And back to my experience as a literacy coach, and I was in charge of putting together intervention schedules for the whole school. And anybody who's been in charge of that, you know, what a task that is like, you have to make sure certain grade level, they're not missing this part, and you're doing it to this time. And, you know, yeah, the right kids in the right group. That could be a system boost, if AI could help with that kind of a thing, right? This is where you need to put the kids. This is but it would still require that knowledgeable input.

Narrator:
22:51

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Donell Pons:
23:32

Okay, if the listeners haven't grasped yet, we're touching on a lot of topics that we will be addressing, right and and having some folks have some very interesting conversations that are coming up. So I look forward to that, because we are bringing up a lot of questions. We may not answer them, but they are interesting, and maybe other conversations will address some of what it is we're talking about. It's kind of interesting because I was thinking about, how do we get folks in education from local education leaders like principals and teachers to institutions of higher education like professors of education Stacy, that's you were talking directly to you and your group to collaborate on a shared agenda for improving reading outcomes. So we've talked about the common language read line was talking about. But then there's also a shared common objective, and you have different levels of different places within education, where it really it would be advantageous for us to come together, but there isn't really that. Isn't really how things are set up. So how do we do that? Stacy, you've tried to work at some of these building ways in which we interact. Speak to that a bit.

Stacy Hurst:
24:37

Well, I can speak as my position in higher ed, and there are organizations like Stephanie probably wouldn't like that. I'm saying Stephanie stillers stars group, but it is a group of higher ed professors who have that common goal in mind, and we're speaking common language, and that's who Dr Reed lion came to speak to, and that has made impact. Um, that I people carry into their systems, right? So I think that would be to answer your question, if you don't have that organization, create it, have a, you know, find your people. I think we've said that before on this podcast, and just start having conversations. And I think that will lead to the path and

Donell Pons:
25:23

Stacy, what are some of the advantages you've already seen, or some of the positives you've seen come out of that experience?

Stacy Hurst:
25:28

Well, so many things actually, beyond the human aspect of I get to meet and know some really fantastic people that I wouldn't otherwise know, but they have the same role that I do, but I think we've all been able to impact everybody's work. And when you think about the work I'm doing right now at higher ed, anybody who's working with students, they're going to my pre service teachers are going to be in service teachers. And so something that I learned from that group, I can apply to my students, who will then be able to apply to their students. So it does have that ripple effect, and that, again, could end up impacting systems, because that knowledge level is improved.

Donell Pons:
26:14

And Lindsay, you've had an opportunity as a teacher, a classroom teacher, think about when you first began teaching in a classroom. Did you ever think that you would have an opportunity to take what you're doing in the classroom and share it to so many different groups in the way that you have and it's so valuable, but I don't know that that was even we even thought that that was something we do as teachers, speak to

Lindsay Kemeny:
26:37

that I know and that you know has been so that's been so helpful, not even just like me helping other teachers, but really just expanding my own personal PLC, my professional learning community beyond the walls of my school, and connecting with educators all across the United States and even the world, not just in my speaking, but all other like a lot of teachers, are doing that too, because we're coming together, and we're using social media, you know, to we're joining different groups and different websites to talk about these things and to really, we all have this passion and desire to improve reading outcomes. So how exciting. And then we have some amazing organizations that are doing a really good job trying to, you know, build this shared knowledge and language. We have the reading League, like, what a great example of what we're talking about, where they're really trying to create change. And you have, you know, the Center for Literacy and Learning with their plain talk conference. And in in New Orleans that they do where they're getting that the word out. And, you know, I'm thinking of Big Sky. I'm forgetting the name of the, oh, the transformative reading group, another wonderful organization. And then, just like you guys, like when we're thinking, we're kind of brainstorming change makers, who are change makers. And because I, you know, I just, I feel really honored that I've been invited so many different places to speak. And every time I'm just thinking about, like, what amazing job this group is doing. So many, you know, school districts that are making changes for their whole school district or or they saw, you know, something another neighboring school district did. And then they're, they're asking me about that, hey, and we want to do that too. And so I see this, you know, kind of talking and collaborating. I know my own school district wanted to, you know, start something. And so they, they were talking with a group in Colorado who was doing this, and, you know, having success with something, and how wonderful if we can do that more and more, where our different groups, our schools, our districts, our states, are talking with each other, not competing, but a rising tide lifts all boats, and we're working together to help each other. And then, like, yeah, on the school level, the same it goes at the school level. It's not like, oh, this teacher is the best, or I want to be the best. It's how can we help everyone at our school be the best? Why? Because we care about kids, and that's like, what this is all about. It's not about individual adults. It's about getting our students to be proficient readers and writers and so I just think there's a lot of people out there doing amazing, amazing things, and we just want to do that, like more and more. We need to scale it up.

Donell Pons:
29:29

Yeah, and I like that you mentioned the conferences, because that has been something that has really kind of boomed. I mean, I remember being involved in a reading conference here locally in our state, with the group Decoding Dyslexia. And that's why, when the reading league came along, I was thrilled, because I knew the power of being involved with a group like that, and thinking of that for teachers is fantastic. And then these conferences where you get to meet people you haven't you wouldn't otherwise get to meet another great thing. And I was just thinking on a very, very small level, a. Personal experience where I have a cousin who reaches out to me in a different state who has a child she's realizing has dyslexia. She was able to recognize that because she attended a professional learning because she wants to renew her teacher's license, so they're doing really good teaching, which was fantastic. She was able to recognize the signs. Goes back and says, What about my own child? The school responds by saying, oh gosh, we're getting training too. I can't believe we missed it. So they're all working together again. No one's blaming everybody's saying, Okay, how do we do this? How do we work together? And then I'm able to reach out to say, Do you know there's someone really great in your state, because I attend their great reading conference, and it's Dr Nell, and it's the Big Sky Conference. So let's reach out to her. That wouldn't happen. And back in the day when I realized, I think my little guy is struggling, this did not exist. There wasn't this network. It was a vast wasteland. And I'm trying to find just one soul that looks like they might be able to collaborate. So we do have some really bright lights in bringing all of these people together. And Stacy, I love, the higher ed to the classroom, we're bringing this full circle in talking about those individuals who, at each level, are helping us to connect and collaborate. Gosh, I'm excited about the future. When was it Louisa moat Stacy that said she didn't want to retire because she's getting too excited. Tell us

Stacy Hurst:
31:14

what she said? Yeah. She said, How can I now? There's still so much work to do and lots of momentum, right? Yeah?

Donell Pons:
31:19

Yeah. That's awesome, fantastic. So if change at scale requires excellent leadership and a lot of other things too, but and it was that was referenced in the journey of collective impact, they were talking about excellent leadership across the board was one of the factors you needed to make a difference. How do we get those leaders, and how do we nurture those leaders, too? So let's think about that for a minute, on our leaders and leadership. And Lindsay, I'm going to ask you, what do you think?

Lindsay Kemeny:
31:56

Well, I'm a huge advocate for leading from where you are. There's a lot of you know, I guess my default is always the teacher level, because I am a teacher, there's a lot of amazing, amazing teachers out there, and even more amazing is I feel like a lot of them are sharing more and more, and we just need more teachers willing to step up and be brave and share the things that are working in their classrooms, and not necessarily. Like, I always think it's so sad when someone leaves the classroom, so like, I wish we had some more systems in place for teacher leaders to, you know, earn more money and things, but to still be in the classroom, because we need good teachers in the classroom. And of course, we need our good you know, I'll let you guys maybe speak more to administration, and we need other leaders too, but, but I do so appreciate those teachers who are willing to kind of take a risk, because people online can be really mean sometimes, and we all need to learn how to give grace to each other, but you know, you know they're going out of their way to show a video or to talk about something or share something they're doing. And even, like, even if you see something, it's not perfect, right? There's, it's always a learning opportunity. And so I just think that is huge, and that's great that we all keep learning and growing, and then, yes, we need leaders at all different levels, right? So maybe I'll let you guys

Donell Pons:
33:27

talk about that. I love that. Stacy. Got any thoughts?

Stacy Hurst:
33:29

Yeah, actually, when you said what you did, Donell, in my head, I'm thinking about my most immediate situation, which is teaching in higher ed, and my my my thought was, oh my gosh, I don't really do that, like with my students. I don't focus on you will be a leader. You will be a leader. And so in my brain, I even wrote down Challenge accepted. I need to start thinking about that. And because you said, how do we develop those leaders? Well, it starts here. I need to start nurturing it, saying you're not just going to be impacting, you know, all the lives within your classroom walls, which are the most important. But how do we lead out and make it a safe place I am in, I started PLCs in one of my classes, and I really want to nurture it there, that it'll be safe, like you're saying, to share. Because collectively, when we do that, we all grow and learn and do better.

Lindsay Kemeny:
34:29

So and it starts with knowledge, right? Stacy, like you know, we want knowledgeable leaders. So even you know, what does, what? What are the class course requirements for someone that's going back to school and getting their administration, you know, getting a degree there we need, we need, like, administrators who understand literacy.

Donell Pons:
34:55

Yep, so you guys got me thinking about a couple of things. Yeah. Really resonated with me, Lindsay, when you were talking about ways in which we build into the system. Teachers can be leaders and still stay in their classrooms, but we need to support them, and that needs to be reflected not only in the way that they're paid, but also in the way that we give them the time to do that, to be involved in both and we recognize they're important both roles, and that elevating those teacher leaders, that's really important. Because I remember being really impacted by a teacher who came up to the legislate, because I go up every year to the legislature here in our state and keep an eye on reading legislation. And I remember a teacher came and showed up and she said, you're here every year, she said to me, and I said, I'll show up every year, and here's why. And gave her a little bit of a background of how I got in here. I'll show up every year, and I'll show up for teachers, because you can't be here. And she said, Thank you for acknowledging the fact that we would be here and we would like to play a role. There just isn't. It's not built into how we do our day. And I thought that was really interesting, is that we need to recognize that something we should be thinking about in our systems, that we could be doing differently, is to support them.

Lindsay Kemeny:
35:57

It reminds me also, you know that a lot of times, teachers don't get the respect we deserve. And in fact, I just had someone reach out to me, and she was explaining that she kind of her her path was a little different, because I believe she started like, like she was an administrator, and she had done all these different roles, and then, and now she's teaching, and she's saying now she It's like she feels like she has the least credibility and least respect. Now, even though she has all this knowledge, she feels like she has not heard and her opinions are not valued now that she's in a teaching role. So that's a huge problem.

Donell Pons:
36:33

That is a huge problem. Imagine setting up a system that already puts that in play for somebody to feel that way about the work that they do, and to put them in that position. That's not good, clearly not good.

Stacy Hurst:
36:43

And we do have laws in place to excuse teachers for jury duty. Why don't we for legislative sessions? I had to take a personal day to go even to the educators on the Hill day when I was in the classroom. So like it, and you have to prepare for a sub, which is never the funnest thing to do, but, yeah, we don't like systemically. That could be very helpful teacher. Voices could be elevated that way too.

Donell Pons:
37:08

Okay, so now I've got a question that might that may or may not this will be interesting, may or may not be something where you stop and go, Oh, wait a minute. I don't know. Or maybe there's something on the tip of your tongue, we discussed innovators and leaders in this space, but what are some other valuable roles change makers fill, other than those two that we haven't discussed? So we talked about innovators and leaders. But what are some other valuable roles change makers fill? I'm going to say one while I'll let you two think so. Isn't that nice of me as the host this episode? I'm giving you think time. I thought of this the other day, that change makers for me in the work that I do and had the experience that I had as first a parent advocate, because that really was the first role that really thrust me into this space, is I feel it's my one of my duties, obligations, things that I do, that the parent of the individuals that I tutor and work with, that parent who's going to be the biggest support system for that student, gets all the information they need. Those parents get that information they need in order to feel confident about what it is that we're dealing with, with reading, to be able to speak to it, to support their student, and to navigate different things they might want to do in that space, but they get a firm understanding, and they are change makers in that space, just educating those parents and I had a an opportunity to see that come back to me Over Christmas, I get a text message from a student, and a student's having a conversation with someone at a Christmas party, and the student is saying, I'm having this conversation with somebody I know that their student probably has dyslexia, and I'm trying to be helpful. This is what I've said. Did I say this? And I said, Hey, wait a minute. Be confident. You've got so much experience. Yes, you were spot on. You were so right. I love to see that that's a change maker. That's a change maker. What do you guys think? Can you think of any other

Lindsay Kemeny:
39:08

well, I'm thinking about researchers, the research they're doing that's going to help inform us. And then, just as important, maybe, like translators, like some people, are very gifted at explaining that research and disseminating the information to educators, and that's really important, because a lot of times the research comes out and it's a long time until educators are aware of it, right, or but, but, and also just focusing on that, you know, the application piece is another thing, because we know one research study is one research study. You know, a meta analysis is going to be stronger, but then, you know, it was that done in isolation? Was it done in classroom? We've talked before about how we want more of that practical research being done. I. So that's just another part piece of the chain.

Donell Pons:
40:03

Nice, yeah. Stacy, how about you?

Stacy Hurst:
40:05

Yeah, I was actually thinking that as well, and as part of that system, that there are barriers within the system from getting that research to the classroom, and oftentimes it is at the state or district or school level, about having research actually done in classrooms, right? We need that that could be a powerful change. Yeah, and I know teachers do at their own action research, which I think is just a mindset that you need to have, but that's me. I also was thinking about, and Lindsay kind of alluded to this earlier too. I recently thought about what you all are saying comes down to awareness. Talk, talk to each other. Help people be aware. You know, I didn't. I wasn't aware of some of the things until I started hearing from other people, and no matter who they are, that make an impact. But I was also thinking, Lindsay, you said, it lead from where you are. And I I know sometimes we think, especially if we feel isolated or alone, that we want to be part of groups outside of where we are, which is good. We should do that. But then always say, How am I going to make the space I'm in better? And I think there are some powerful changes that come from that mindset, because in that case, people become connectors, right? Of people that that are able to influence change in maybe a more efficient way. But you

Donell Pons:
41:39

know, and you've made me think of something the that I'm really excited about, and I hope to see more of in the future and hear about more of the change makers of curriculum, companies making them, partners, the reading League, putting it out there. Let's take a look at here's a checklist. Let's collaborate. I that would be fantastic, and hopefully leads to a new way of looking at curriculum, that this is not set in stone, but rather this is what we know today, and we're constantly looking to improve Boy, that's the mindset and curriculum. And you know what?

Stacy Hurst:
42:13

Back to Big Sky. We had two oral language curriculum. Yeah, representatives, people like products. You could call them. They there was no competition between them. They were all about what is best for development and students, and they were they even shared the stage at the same time. And sometimes I think curriculum providers get a little territorial. You know, marketing is like, we're the best. You should go with us. But in truth, we're all playing a role in helping to improve literacy. So that's that's a fascinating thing to think about.

Lindsay Kemeny:
42:51

One of them said, I can't remember if it was Doug Peterson or someone else said, you know, we're not here to compete with everyone. We're here to change the world or something like that.

Stacy Hurst:
43:05

Yeah, yeah. But

Lindsay Kemeny:
43:07

Donell, like you hit on a point I really didn't think to bring up. And yeah, like our programs, our curriculums, you know, resources, that is huge, and that's a huge part of change. And kudos to the companies who are making changes in their programs, and they're rewriting and it takes time, right? They can't just, like, put out something in a matter of months, because now we're like, oh yes, you know, now parts of research are more clear to us, or whatever. You know, that's when us as teachers kind of have to be ready to adapt a program. Sometimes the programs take a little bit to get caught up. But kudos to the ones that are not just like digging in their heels and saying, No, this is how we've always done things. But are willing to and and not just jump from one thing to the next right, like flip flop, but to really look carefully at evidence and then make changes, substantial, effective changes in their programs, like that's a huge part of this,

Stacy Hurst:
44:08

and make sure that they are part of research that is not just for marketing purposes, right? I think that's one thing that I've been impressed with. Reading Horizons. I know they're doing research to be able to impact the product and their impact, and not just to say, See that, see we work, right? Like I that's just one example, but I know there are other companies that do that too, so that's a good point, and let's not see them as an a curriculum company as an other, right? They are such an integral part of a day to day operation of any educational system.

Donell Pons:
44:45

Yeah, yeah. Okay, this has been fantastic conversation you guys, and I'm looking so forward to some more conversations. So it kind of gives you a taste for all of the things we've yet to discuss in literacy and within change making in literacy. So I look forward to these. Conversations be fantastic. Thanks so much.

Stacy Hurst:
45:03

Join us for the next episode of literacy talks.

Narrator:
45:10

Thanks for joining us today. Literacy Talks comes to you from Reading Horizons, where literacy momentum begins. Visit readinghorizons.com/literacytalks to access episodes and resources to support your journey in the science of reading.